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I've done a fair amount of both and there's an element of truth in your statement - but it's far from the whole picture. Spreadsheets solve data entry in terms

I've done a fair amount of both and there's an element of truth in your statement - but it's far from the whole picture. Spreadsheets solve data entry in terms of providing a nice UI - but when you add too many formula, the advantages quickly disappear and code starts to become a much saner way to handle the logic. As for other systems (audio and video tools) kinda yeah but no. There's some nice aspects to visualizing the data flow but that's something that can be implemented as a feature to text-based programming. Actual editing is more laborious and many tasks that are simple with text are complex in all the visual tools I've tried. I'm not saying visual tools have no advantages over text - I just feel that the cost is very high indeed and we should really be looking for a synthesis that gives us the best of both worlds.

whstl 3y ago
> but when you add too many formula So there is a “but”. Traditional programming also has a but: it can do anything a spreadsheet can, but it is often overkill. Spreadsheets etc are waaaaaaay faster and safer for 90% or more of the work. > I just feel that the cost is very high indeed and we should really be looking for a synthesis that gives us the best of both worlds But normal people is happy with the specific solutions in the meantime. Maybe there will be a proper visual language paradigm that will end all textual languages the future, sure, but in the meantime, comparing visual languages with this impossible utopic silver bullet is unfair and limiting.
- andybak 3y ago
  > But normal people is happy with the specific solutions in the meantime. I'm not discussing whether they are "happy". I'm arguing that Visual Programming comes with some massive drawbacks. Whether people are aware of them or not is irrelevant. There's such a thing as being contentedly stuck in a local minima. I believe that there are objective drawbacks (to both approaches actually). Whether you currently enjoy using them or not doesn't have much bearing on the point that things could be much better.
  - whstl 3y ago
    > I'm arguing that Visual Programming comes with some massive drawbacks And textual programming comes with even bigger drawbacks. I don't want to care about programming things like memory, time complexity, nulls, or code style when I'm programming a synth patch in Max or Reaktor, or when writing a spreadsheet. If needed, I can just use a compiler. > many tasks that are simple with text are complex in all the visual tools I've tried. And many tasks that are simple with visual programming are incredibly complex with textual programming. There is a reason people use it, and part of it about embracing the paradigm, rather than trying to emulate what you already know in it.
    - andybak 3y ago
      > memory, time complexity, nulls, or code style None of these are specific to text vs visual. Except maybe "code style" and that has a direct analogue in visual programming (and arguably one that's harder to manage). > If needed, I can just use a compiler. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this is another orthogonal concern. > And many tasks that are simple with visual programming are incredibly complex with textual programming. I never said otherwise. > There is a reason people use it, and part of it about embracing the paradigm, rather than trying to emulate what you already know in it. There most certainly are very good reasons to use visual programming. But that doesn't make the pain points disappear. I'm not sure how to put this any clearer but what I'm trying to say "They both suck. I think we can do better..."

whstl 3y ago

> but when you add too many formula So there is a “but”. Traditional programming also has a but: it can do anything a spreadsheet can, but it is often overkill. Spreadsheets etc are waaaaaaay faster and safer for 90% or more of the work. > I just feel that the cost is very high indeed and we should really be looking for a synthesis that gives us the best of both worlds But normal people is happy with the specific solutions in the meantime. Maybe there will be a proper visual language paradigm that will end all textual languages the future, sure, but in the meantime, comparing visual languages with this impossible utopic silver bullet is unfair and limiting.

andybak 3y ago
> But normal people is happy with the specific solutions in the meantime. I'm not discussing whether they are "happy". I'm arguing that Visual Programming comes with some massive drawbacks. Whether people are aware of them or not is irrelevant. There's such a thing as being contentedly stuck in a local minima. I believe that there are objective drawbacks (to both approaches actually). Whether you currently enjoy using them or not doesn't have much bearing on the point that things could be much better.
- whstl 3y ago
  > I'm arguing that Visual Programming comes with some massive drawbacks And textual programming comes with even bigger drawbacks. I don't want to care about programming things like memory, time complexity, nulls, or code style when I'm programming a synth patch in Max or Reaktor, or when writing a spreadsheet. If needed, I can just use a compiler. > many tasks that are simple with text are complex in all the visual tools I've tried. And many tasks that are simple with visual programming are incredibly complex with textual programming. There is a reason people use it, and part of it about embracing the paradigm, rather than trying to emulate what you already know in it.
  - andybak 3y ago
    > memory, time complexity, nulls, or code style None of these are specific to text vs visual. Except maybe "code style" and that has a direct analogue in visual programming (and arguably one that's harder to manage). > If needed, I can just use a compiler. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this is another orthogonal concern. > And many tasks that are simple with visual programming are incredibly complex with textual programming. I never said otherwise. > There is a reason people use it, and part of it about embracing the paradigm, rather than trying to emulate what you already know in it. There most certainly are very good reasons to use visual programming. But that doesn't make the pain points disappear. I'm not sure how to put this any clearer but what I'm trying to say "They both suck. I think we can do better..."