6 ms·

What Palestine? I am not familiar with such country

by tguvot 3y ago

runarberg 3y ago
These are the words of the UN General Assembly, not mine. However I do believe they refer mostly to the Palestinian People (not country) and the prospect of a Palestinian state. Furthermore, they refer to occupied territories and not the occupied country of Palestine, so I don’t see your confusion. I’m assuming, off course, that you recognize the existence of the Palestinian people and their possibility that there may be a Palestinian state. Otherwise I’m not sure I should be responding to this.
- tguvot 3y ago
  sounds confusing. do jewish people have right of self determination ?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - runarberg 3y ago
    Very interesting question (albeit a bit irrelevant). But the short answer is no, or at least not as a single group within the context of international law. There is no internationally recognized state which represents all Jewish people, therefor they don’t have the right of self determination. The state of Israel does, but it only represents Israeli citizens and to a lesser extends residents within Israel (not including its occupied territories), and certainly not all Jewish people in the world. But Israeli citizens do have the right of self determination as a group, which they have been exorcising (quite brutally for that matter) since 1948. A note here, that the question of self determination is again the words of the UN General Assembly, I have my own thoughts on it, which I try not to steer into, as this is already irrelevant to the question of decolonization efforts exemplifying the United Nations. Like Israel, the Palestinian people also have an internationally recognized right to self determination, which is recognized by 139 of the 193 UN member states (including my home country of Iceland; Israel only has 27 more countries which recognize their statehood). They don’t get to exorcise this right as often as they would like to as many aspects of their statehood is controlled by Israel (which we were frequently reminded of in the ICJ testimonies this week; and talked about above). One could—confusingly—argue that Catholics do have the right to self determination, as they do have an internationally recognized state representing them, but in practice (and de jure) it is merely the very senior rulers of the religion that live and work in the Vatican, which have that right. But not every nation gets the same right of self determination. American Indians, famously have a very limited right of self determination, the Roma people in Europe get hardly any. Inuit in Greenland have much more than Inuit in Nunavut. The Tatars in Crimea don’t get it, but the Russian speakers in the same territory only get it via Russia while internationally it is recognized they should get it via Ukraine. The self determination of the Taiwanese people is even more complicated. My personal feelings about the right of self determination is that it should not belong to nations, but rather by classes belonging to an international solidarity of workers. However we do live in this UN based world as determined by the winners of World War 2, and they say the right to self determination belongs to internationally recognized nation states. Both Israel and Palestine are one, so legally speaking, they should both have their own separate right to self determination. But in reality Israel denies Palestine of that right.
    - tguvot 3y ago
      you are confusing state vs people. from what i see both un charter International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) refer to right to self determination belonging to people. so, do jewish people have right for self determination ? also, do you realize, that nowhere un chater or international laws written that right to self determination implies that state should be given to people ?
      - runarberg 3y ago
        I’m not an expert in international law, but I’m not sure that I am. At the very least this subject is confusing, and we might—very likely—both be confused by it. The right of self determination applies to peoples, not people and not states. What is peoples is another issue which is not clearly defined. But I think of it as a broad category of defined group with some shared cultural heritage, be it ethnic, religious, or culture (but not subculture). LGBTQ+ are peoples, Inuit are peoples, Icelanders are peoples, and so are Israelis, which are separate peoples from Palestinians (also peoples). Jewish people are also peoples, but they are not the same peoples as the Israeli people. Many belong to both peoples, but there are many non-jewish Israelis and much more non-Israeli Jews. In the context of international law you can think of the Palestinian people as both an ethnic group, a group with a shared history and culture, a nation group as well as an indigenous group. As I understand it there is a varying degree of self determination which is granted to each type of group. The right of self determination of internationally recognized nation states is pretty much undisputed at the UN. And since Palestine is one (albeit without control of its territory) the question should be answered. But the UN also has other charters like the rights of indigenous peoples (which Israel did not vote against) which grants the right of self determination to indigenous groups within your territory (in Israel this is at the very least Bedouins; but potentially all Palestinians; the case at the ICJ actually specifies Bedouins in this context). Likewise there are quite a few charters granting the right of self determination to colonized peoples, of which Palestine also qualifies. Now when we speak of Jews as a single ethno-religious group. They are definitely peoples and as such should have some degree of self determination. But within the context of international law, this is pretty limited, probably only to the right to practice free religion (which is sadly more than the Roma people in Europe get). The Jewish people live in many different countries, have very different culture, speak many different languages and are of different ethnicity. If it was up to me, this wouldn’t matter, if they had a shared class interest (which they don’t) they should get the right of self determination (as long as it doesn’t go against the international solidarity of workers). But we are in this UN based world (for better or worse) and as such the nation state trumps all rights of self determination. So the Jewish people as a group will have to settle for the same degree of self determination as every other religious group (except the Roman Catholics) that of free religion within the nation state they live in.
  - khokhol 3y ago
    Do jewish people have right of self determination? In the sense that all peoples have the right of self-determination - of course, unquestionably. As to whether that applies to the self-determination in the sense of a viable community within the boundaries historic Palestine? You know the answer already, of course. As per the Balfour declaration, as long as it is: clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine
    - tguvot 3y ago
      i dont think that balfour declaration has any relevance in modern "international law". but given that you opened this topic, under international law, un charter, etc, do jewish people have right of self determination in judea and samaria ?
      - khokhol 3y ago
        Do jewish people have right of self determination in judea and samaria? The international community does not recognize "Judea and Samaria" as a jurisdiction. So the question is moot. Further, what you're getting at is a question of sovereignty -- which has nothing to do with religious belief or cultural identity, per se. Which makes the question doubly moot.
        tguvot 3y ago
        >The international community does not recognize "Judea and Samaria" as a jurisdiction. So the question is moot. Judea and Samaria are historical names and predate establishment of state of Israel and it administrative division. This naming is also used by UN and going back for example to 1947 UN Partition plan: "the boundary of the hill country of Samaria and Judea starts on the Jordan River...". and i am not talking about sovereignty. i am talking about self determination per us charter. can jews do it there ? can samaritans do it there ? can palestinians do it there ?
        khokhol 3y ago
  - Qem 3y ago
    Do white people had right of self determination in apartheid South Africa? Did that give them the right to treat black people the way they were treated?
    - tguvot 3y ago
      both un charter International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) refer to right to self determination belonging to people without any restriction on grouping or locations.
Qem 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartography_of_Palestine#/media/File%3ASidney_Hall_1830_map_of_Palestine_showing_Ottoman_divisions.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartography_of_Palestine#/me...
- tguvot 3y ago
  ottoman empire and subdivisions of syria and something. literally written in the link

What Palestine? I am not familiar with such country

by tguvot 3y ago

What Palestine? I am not familiar with such country

These are the words of the UN General Assembly, not mine. However I do believe they refer mostly to the Palestinian People (not country) and the prospect of a Palestinian state. Furthermore, they refer to occupied territories and not the occupied country of Palestine, so I don’t see your confusion. I’m assuming, off course, that you recognize the existence of the Palestinian people and their possibility that there may be a Palestinian state. Otherwise I’m not sure I should be responding to this.

tguvot 3y ago
sounds confusing. do jewish people have right of self determination ?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- runarberg 3y ago
  Very interesting question (albeit a bit irrelevant). But the short answer is no, or at least not as a single group within the context of international law. There is no internationally recognized state which represents all Jewish people, therefor they don’t have the right of self determination. The state of Israel does, but it only represents Israeli citizens and to a lesser extends residents within Israel (not including its occupied territories), and certainly not all Jewish people in the world. But Israeli citizens do have the right of self determination as a group, which they have been exorcising (quite brutally for that matter) since 1948. A note here, that the question of self determination is again the words of the UN General Assembly, I have my own thoughts on it, which I try not to steer into, as this is already irrelevant to the question of decolonization efforts exemplifying the United Nations. Like Israel, the Palestinian people also have an internationally recognized right to self determination, which is recognized by 139 of the 193 UN member states (including my home country of Iceland; Israel only has 27 more countries which recognize their statehood). They don’t get to exorcise this right as often as they would like to as many aspects of their statehood is controlled by Israel (which we were frequently reminded of in the ICJ testimonies this week; and talked about above). One could—confusingly—argue that Catholics do have the right to self determination, as they do have an internationally recognized state representing them, but in practice (and de jure) it is merely the very senior rulers of the religion that live and work in the Vatican, which have that right. But not every nation gets the same right of self determination. American Indians, famously have a very limited right of self determination, the Roma people in Europe get hardly any. Inuit in Greenland have much more than Inuit in Nunavut. The Tatars in Crimea don’t get it, but the Russian speakers in the same territory only get it via Russia while internationally it is recognized they should get it via Ukraine. The self determination of the Taiwanese people is even more complicated. My personal feelings about the right of self determination is that it should not belong to nations, but rather by classes belonging to an international solidarity of workers. However we do live in this UN based world as determined by the winners of World War 2, and they say the right to self determination belongs to internationally recognized nation states. Both Israel and Palestine are one, so legally speaking, they should both have their own separate right to self determination. But in reality Israel denies Palestine of that right.
  - tguvot 3y ago
    you are confusing state vs people. from what i see both un charter International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) refer to right to self determination belonging to people. so, do jewish people have right for self determination ? also, do you realize, that nowhere un chater or international laws written that right to self determination implies that state should be given to people ?
    - runarberg 3y ago
      I’m not an expert in international law, but I’m not sure that I am. At the very least this subject is confusing, and we might—very likely—both be confused by it. The right of self determination applies to peoples, not people and not states. What is peoples is another issue which is not clearly defined. But I think of it as a broad category of defined group with some shared cultural heritage, be it ethnic, religious, or culture (but not subculture). LGBTQ+ are peoples, Inuit are peoples, Icelanders are peoples, and so are Israelis, which are separate peoples from Palestinians (also peoples). Jewish people are also peoples, but they are not the same peoples as the Israeli people. Many belong to both peoples, but there are many non-jewish Israelis and much more non-Israeli Jews. In the context of international law you can think of the Palestinian people as both an ethnic group, a group with a shared history and culture, a nation group as well as an indigenous group. As I understand it there is a varying degree of self determination which is granted to each type of group. The right of self determination of internationally recognized nation states is pretty much undisputed at the UN. And since Palestine is one (albeit without control of its territory) the question should be answered. But the UN also has other charters like the rights of indigenous peoples (which Israel did not vote against) which grants the right of self determination to indigenous groups within your territory (in Israel this is at the very least Bedouins; but potentially all Palestinians; the case at the ICJ actually specifies Bedouins in this context). Likewise there are quite a few charters granting the right of self determination to colonized peoples, of which Palestine also qualifies. Now when we speak of Jews as a single ethno-religious group. They are definitely peoples and as such should have some degree of self determination. But within the context of international law, this is pretty limited, probably only to the right to practice free religion (which is sadly more than the Roma people in Europe get). The Jewish people live in many different countries, have very different culture, speak many different languages and are of different ethnicity. If it was up to me, this wouldn’t matter, if they had a shared class interest (which they don’t) they should get the right of self determination (as long as it doesn’t go against the international solidarity of workers). But we are in this UN based world (for better or worse) and as such the nation state trumps all rights of self determination. So the Jewish people as a group will have to settle for the same degree of self determination as every other religious group (except the Roman Catholics) that of free religion within the nation state they live in.
- khokhol 3y ago
  Do jewish people have right of self determination? In the sense that all peoples have the right of self-determination - of course, unquestionably. As to whether that applies to the self-determination in the sense of a viable community within the boundaries historic Palestine? You know the answer already, of course. As per the Balfour declaration, as long as it is: clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine
  - tguvot 3y ago
    i dont think that balfour declaration has any relevance in modern "international law". but given that you opened this topic, under international law, un charter, etc, do jewish people have right of self determination in judea and samaria ?
    - khokhol 3y ago
      Do jewish people have right of self determination in judea and samaria? The international community does not recognize "Judea and Samaria" as a jurisdiction. So the question is moot. Further, what you're getting at is a question of sovereignty -- which has nothing to do with religious belief or cultural identity, per se. Which makes the question doubly moot.
      - tguvot 3y ago
        >The international community does not recognize "Judea and Samaria" as a jurisdiction. So the question is moot. Judea and Samaria are historical names and predate establishment of state of Israel and it administrative division. This naming is also used by UN and going back for example to 1947 UN Partition plan: "the boundary of the hill country of Samaria and Judea starts on the Jordan River...". and i am not talking about sovereignty. i am talking about self determination per us charter. can jews do it there ? can samaritans do it there ? can palestinians do it there ?
        khokhol 3y ago
- Qem 3y ago
  Do white people had right of self determination in apartheid South Africa? Did that give them the right to treat black people the way they were treated?
  - tguvot 3y ago
    both un charter International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) refer to right to self determination belonging to people without any restriction on grouping or locations.

Qem 3y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartography_of_Palestine#/media/File%3ASidney_Hall_1830_map_of_Palestine_showing_Ottoman_divisions.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartography_of_Palestine#/me...

tguvot 3y ago
ottoman empire and subdivisions of syria and something. literally written in the link