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> Maybe I've done too much TDD, but to me the tests describe how the system is supposed to behave. This is very much what I want the human to define and the cod

> Maybe I've done too much TDD, but to me the tests describe how the system is supposed to behave. This is very much what I want the human to define and the code should fit within the guardrails set by the tests. People who work on legacy code bases often build what are called “characterisation tests” - tests which define how the current code base actually behaves, as opposed to how some human believes it ought to behave. They enable you to rewrite/refactor/rearchitect code while minimising the risk of introducing regressions. The problem with many legacy code bases is nobody understands how they are supposed to work, sometimes even the users believe it is supposed to work a certain way which is different from how it actually does - but the most important thing is to avoid changing behaviour except when changes are explicitly desired.

totetsu 3y ago
Couldn’t an llm provided with the right level of logs write really good characterization tests?
- crowcroft 3y ago
  The seems like a perfect use case. Quickly find all the foot guns you didn’t know to look for.
  - wahnfrieden 3y ago
    as long as you have process to dismantle the tests and move fully over to a new system, if you are indeed migrating/upgrading. leaving a legacy thing dangling and tightly coupled tests lingering for years happens easily when going from 95% to 100% can cost too much for management and stakeholders in various ways relative to other pressing needs
    - skissane 3y ago
      > as long as you have process to dismantle the tests and move fully over to a new system, if you are indeed migrating/upgrading. leaving a legacy thing dangling and tightly coupled tests lingering for years happens easily when going from 95% to 100% can cost too much for management and stakeholders in various ways relative to other pressing needs Characterisation tests are not supposed to be tightly coupled – they are supposed to be integration/end-to-end tests not unit tests – the point is to ensure that some business process continues to produce the same outputs given the same inputs, not that the internals of how it produces that output are unchanged. Code coverage is used as an (imperfect) measure of how complete your set of test inputs is, and as a tool to help discover new test inputs, and minimise test inputs (if two test inputs all hit the same lines/branches, maybe it is wasteful to keep both of them–although it isn't just about code coverage, e.g. extreme values such as maximums and minimums can be valuable in the test suite even if they don't actually increase coverage.) They can take the form of unit tests if you are focusing on refactoring a specific component, and want to ensure its interactions with the rest of the application are not changed. But at some point, a larger redesign may get rid of that component entirely, at which point you can throw those unit tests away, but you'll likely keep the system-level tests
- skissane 3y ago
  A significant part of writing characterisation tests can be simply staring at a code coverage report and asking “can I write a test (possibly by modifying an existing one) which hits this line/branch”. Sometimes that’s easy, sometimes that’s hard, sometimes that’s impossible (code bases, especially crapulent legacy ones, sometimes contain large sections of dead code which are impossible to reach given any input). An LLM doesn’t have to always get it right to be useful-have it generate a whole bunch of tests, run them all, keep the ones which hit new lines/conditions, maybe even feed those results back in to see if it can iteratively improve, stop when it is no longer generating useful tests. Hopefully, that addresses most of the low-hanging fruit, and leaves the harder cases to a human. There already exist automated test generation systems which can do some of this–for example, concolic testing-but an LLM can be viewed as just another tool in the toolbox, which may sometimes be able to generate tests which concolic testing can’t, or possibly produce the same tests quicker than concolic testing would. There is also the potential for them to interact synergistically - the LLM might produce a test which concolic testing couldn’t, but then concolic testing might then use that to discover further tests which the LLM couldn’t.
ajmurmann 3y ago
Agreed, that's a great use case for autogenerated tests.
- dmarchand90 3y ago
  From my experience I use llms for writing tests because llms are much better at writing tests than the application code. I suspect this might be due to the fact that the code ends up being a very detailed and clear prompt to the llm.
makeitdouble 3y ago
Yes. There's also other (better) ways to solve this issue: for instance sampling input/outputs in production and srtting them in stone in the tests. An issue with going with llms will be to validate if the behavior described are merely tolerated or if they're correct. Another will be wether something is actually tested (e.g. a code change still wouldn't break the test). Too granular output check would be an issue as well. All in all this feels like a bad idea, but I hope to be wrong.
- wickedsickeune 3y ago
  This is called a "golden master" (giving X input to the system and recording the output as a test expectation). The difference with the parent is that it is way less granular, so both have value.
  - weebull 3y ago
    This is something I've yet to see a software testing framework do. Compare the results of two different implementations separated in time. i.e. two different revisions out of source control, using one as the golden reference for the other.
    - CHY872 3y ago
      bazhenov/tango does something like this for performance tests, basically to counter system behaviour you run the old and new implementation at the same time.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - adregan 3y ago
      Isn’t that kind of what snapshot tests can do?
  - fosstrack 3y ago
    I maintained a fairly successful legacy C/C++ application that performed business critical functions. The core developers were long gone, and countless of changes had to gone into it since. The only way the application survived was automatically comparing outputs and intermediate data structures against "ideal" values. Hundreds of business scenarios with their own input datasets. No one really understood what each scenario or ideal value meant. So your goal was to minimize divergence, and update the test case if it was deemed acceptable.
Muromec 3y ago
Imagine dealing with say COBOL where even the team who was hired to maintain it is going to retire. It's the closest to "lost technology" trope from Sci-Fi we have ever been.
- giantrobot 3y ago
  > Imagine dealing with say COBOL where even the team who was hired to maintain it is going to retire. It's the closest to "lost technology" trope from Sci-Fi we have ever been. The technical aspect of the code is not actually the difficult part WRT maintenance. Someone that knows COBOL as a language can figure out what some code does and how it does it. It takes time but that is information that can be derived if you just have the code. The main problem with COBOL is the code is often an implementation of some business or regulatory process. The COBOL maintainer retiring is taking knowledge of the code but more importantly the knowledge of the literal business logic. The business logic and accounting/legal restraints aren't something that can necessarily be derived from the code. You can know some bit of code multiplies a value to 100 but you can't necessarily know if it supposed to do that. If the source code and documentation don't capture the why of the code the how doesn't help the future maintainer. Often with COBOL the people that originally defined the why of the code are not just retired but dead. The first generation of maintainers may only have ever received partial knowledge of the why so even the best documenters have holes in their knowledge. They may have had exposure to the original why defines but neglected or didn't have an opportunity to document some aspects of why. The subsequent generations of maintainers are constrained by how much of the original why was documented. Edit: pre-coffee typo
  - Muromec 3y ago
    In places where cobol is still a thing, said regulatory process is the product and has a person who is nominally supposed to know the requirements.

totetsu 3y ago

Couldn’t an llm provided with the right level of logs write really good characterization tests?

crowcroft 3y ago
The seems like a perfect use case. Quickly find all the foot guns you didn’t know to look for.
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  as long as you have process to dismantle the tests and move fully over to a new system, if you are indeed migrating/upgrading. leaving a legacy thing dangling and tightly coupled tests lingering for years happens easily when going from 95% to 100% can cost too much for management and stakeholders in various ways relative to other pressing needs
  - skissane 3y ago
    > as long as you have process to dismantle the tests and move fully over to a new system, if you are indeed migrating/upgrading. leaving a legacy thing dangling and tightly coupled tests lingering for years happens easily when going from 95% to 100% can cost too much for management and stakeholders in various ways relative to other pressing needs Characterisation tests are not supposed to be tightly coupled – they are supposed to be integration/end-to-end tests not unit tests – the point is to ensure that some business process continues to produce the same outputs given the same inputs, not that the internals of how it produces that output are unchanged. Code coverage is used as an (imperfect) measure of how complete your set of test inputs is, and as a tool to help discover new test inputs, and minimise test inputs (if two test inputs all hit the same lines/branches, maybe it is wasteful to keep both of them–although it isn't just about code coverage, e.g. extreme values such as maximums and minimums can be valuable in the test suite even if they don't actually increase coverage.) They can take the form of unit tests if you are focusing on refactoring a specific component, and want to ensure its interactions with the rest of the application are not changed. But at some point, a larger redesign may get rid of that component entirely, at which point you can throw those unit tests away, but you'll likely keep the system-level tests
skissane 3y ago
A significant part of writing characterisation tests can be simply staring at a code coverage report and asking “can I write a test (possibly by modifying an existing one) which hits this line/branch”. Sometimes that’s easy, sometimes that’s hard, sometimes that’s impossible (code bases, especially crapulent legacy ones, sometimes contain large sections of dead code which are impossible to reach given any input). An LLM doesn’t have to always get it right to be useful-have it generate a whole bunch of tests, run them all, keep the ones which hit new lines/conditions, maybe even feed those results back in to see if it can iteratively improve, stop when it is no longer generating useful tests. Hopefully, that addresses most of the low-hanging fruit, and leaves the harder cases to a human. There already exist automated test generation systems which can do some of this–for example, concolic testing-but an LLM can be viewed as just another tool in the toolbox, which may sometimes be able to generate tests which concolic testing can’t, or possibly produce the same tests quicker than concolic testing would. There is also the potential for them to interact synergistically - the LLM might produce a test which concolic testing couldn’t, but then concolic testing might then use that to discover further tests which the LLM couldn’t.

ajmurmann 3y ago

Agreed, that's a great use case for autogenerated tests.

dmarchand90 3y ago
From my experience I use llms for writing tests because llms are much better at writing tests than the application code. I suspect this might be due to the fact that the code ends up being a very detailed and clear prompt to the llm.

makeitdouble 3y ago

Yes. There's also other (better) ways to solve this issue: for instance sampling input/outputs in production and srtting them in stone in the tests. An issue with going with llms will be to validate if the behavior described are merely tolerated or if they're correct. Another will be wether something is actually tested (e.g. a code change still wouldn't break the test). Too granular output check would be an issue as well. All in all this feels like a bad idea, but I hope to be wrong.

wickedsickeune 3y ago
This is called a "golden master" (giving X input to the system and recording the output as a test expectation). The difference with the parent is that it is way less granular, so both have value.
- weebull 3y ago
  This is something I've yet to see a software testing framework do. Compare the results of two different implementations separated in time. i.e. two different revisions out of source control, using one as the golden reference for the other.
  - CHY872 3y ago
    bazhenov/tango does something like this for performance tests, basically to counter system behaviour you run the old and new implementation at the same time.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - adregan 3y ago
    Isn’t that kind of what snapshot tests can do?
- fosstrack 3y ago
  I maintained a fairly successful legacy C/C++ application that performed business critical functions. The core developers were long gone, and countless of changes had to gone into it since. The only way the application survived was automatically comparing outputs and intermediate data structures against "ideal" values. Hundreds of business scenarios with their own input datasets. No one really understood what each scenario or ideal value meant. So your goal was to minimize divergence, and update the test case if it was deemed acceptable.

Muromec 3y ago

Imagine dealing with say COBOL where even the team who was hired to maintain it is going to retire. It's the closest to "lost technology" trope from Sci-Fi we have ever been.

giantrobot 3y ago
> Imagine dealing with say COBOL where even the team who was hired to maintain it is going to retire. It's the closest to "lost technology" trope from Sci-Fi we have ever been. The technical aspect of the code is not actually the difficult part WRT maintenance. Someone that knows COBOL as a language can figure out what some code does and how it does it. It takes time but that is information that can be derived if you just have the code. The main problem with COBOL is the code is often an implementation of some business or regulatory process. The COBOL maintainer retiring is taking knowledge of the code but more importantly the knowledge of the literal business logic. The business logic and accounting/legal restraints aren't something that can necessarily be derived from the code. You can know some bit of code multiplies a value to 100 but you can't necessarily know if it supposed to do that. If the source code and documentation don't capture the why of the code the how doesn't help the future maintainer. Often with COBOL the people that originally defined the why of the code are not just retired but dead. The first generation of maintainers may only have ever received partial knowledge of the why so even the best documenters have holes in their knowledge. They may have had exposure to the original why defines but neglected or didn't have an opportunity to document some aspects of why. The subsequent generations of maintainers are constrained by how much of the original why was documented. Edit: pre-coffee typo
- Muromec 3y ago
  In places where cobol is still a thing, said regulatory process is the product and has a person who is nominally supposed to know the requirements.