6 ms·

Scuttlebutt had the Bitcoin like problem of requiring everybody to have a local copy of the entire database, with a confusing / glitchy "syncing" process to dow

Scuttlebutt had the Bitcoin like problem of requiring everybody to have a local copy of the entire database, with a confusing / glitchy "syncing" process to download the latest posts. I tried to use it for a few days on my Android, but it never showed any new posts and the syncing process took like 30 seconds every time I opened the app.

1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
A true Satoshi whitepaper Bitcoin would include everyone having a local copy of the database as well as peer-to-peer connections. No necessary middlemen. Is this correct.
- pooper 3y ago
  A Bitcoin of my dreams would have close to zero if not zero transactions cost with everyone on the network running at least full nodes fully synchronized with the main network. The fact that it costs money to send some Bitcoin from one wallet to another is sad.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
  It requires a third party to send some Bitcoin from one wallet to another. Is this correct. Was this contemplated by the Satoshi paper.
r3trohack3r 3y ago
This isn't entirely true. Scuttelbutt had some design and scaling issues. But there wasn't a global database. Each user gets their own blockchain. Its a network of tiny blockchains where the consensus model was the signature from the private key and the chain of hashes.
- p4bl0 3y ago
  Not disagreeing with you, just nitpicking on the use of a word: What you are describing is simply a signed Merkle tree, not a blockchain. You cannot really call an individual signing it's own ledger a consensus mechanism. Maybe "validity" or "authenticity" would be better terms here. I know a lot of people make this mistake of labelling anything that has a Merkle-tree like structure a blockchain but it's impractical when you need to talk about the technology rigorously to have a word that meant something precise suddenly encompass so many things, including tools such as Git. Coming back to Scuttlebutt, even the website of Manyverse, the mobile client, explicitly says "no blockchains", so it seems at least some of the people involved in Scuttlebutt development agree with this.
  - jazzyjackson 3y ago
    right, blocks are specifically the result of a global consensus if there's not a discrete unit of appended data that all peers agree has happened, there's not a block "hashchain" maybe, but merkle tree is already plenty precise
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Many of these systems also don’t have a Merkle tree, they have a Merkle linked list. Which I think contributes a lot to the syncing problem. A skip list structure where each node has multiple hashes/identities would let you skip the last five years of edits and pull down only the individual edits for the last month. The “Merkle tree” I worked on before this blockchain nonsense started was a Merkle DAG, representing a mostly linear state flow with some parallel elements.
    - r3trohack3r 3y ago
      > A skip list structure where each node has multiple hashes/identities would let you skip the last five years of edits and pull down only the individual edits for the last month. Do you have any references or reading material on this pattern? Would love to learn more.
      - 3y ago
lurtbancaster 3y ago
Admittedly my only exposure to the Secure Scuttlebutt Protocol(SSB) is through manyver.se [1] - a FOSS private(optionally) social media app. And the syncing issue you mention has been one for me too. Sometimes it's even worse - it fails to sync entirely until another app restart. Maybe this is a manyverse issue, maybe a SSB issue. Either way, hitherto at least, it doesn't seem reliable. If there are alternative ways to have an offline(over Wi-Fi/bluetooth, not internet) social media/messaging app, that works on both Android and ios, please do let me know. Thanks. [1] https://www.manyver.se/ https://www.manyver.se/
- evbogue 3y ago
  At a certain point in the history of SSB the manlyverse team took over the maintenance of SSB and the apps locking until the end of a sync became the norm. Prior to this there were websocket-based web and Electron apps where you could at least see that progress was being made. SSB always sank from the first post to the latest. IMO it's better to sync from the latest backwards.

1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago

A true Satoshi whitepaper Bitcoin would include everyone having a local copy of the database as well as peer-to-peer connections. No necessary middlemen. Is this correct.

pooper 3y ago
A Bitcoin of my dreams would have close to zero if not zero transactions cost with everyone on the network running at least full nodes fully synchronized with the main network. The fact that it costs money to send some Bitcoin from one wallet to another is sad.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
It requires a third party to send some Bitcoin from one wallet to another. Is this correct. Was this contemplated by the Satoshi paper.

r3trohack3r 3y ago

This isn't entirely true. Scuttelbutt had some design and scaling issues. But there wasn't a global database. Each user gets their own blockchain. Its a network of tiny blockchains where the consensus model was the signature from the private key and the chain of hashes.

p4bl0 3y ago
Not disagreeing with you, just nitpicking on the use of a word: What you are describing is simply a signed Merkle tree, not a blockchain. You cannot really call an individual signing it's own ledger a consensus mechanism. Maybe "validity" or "authenticity" would be better terms here. I know a lot of people make this mistake of labelling anything that has a Merkle-tree like structure a blockchain but it's impractical when you need to talk about the technology rigorously to have a word that meant something precise suddenly encompass so many things, including tools such as Git. Coming back to Scuttlebutt, even the website of Manyverse, the mobile client, explicitly says "no blockchains", so it seems at least some of the people involved in Scuttlebutt development agree with this.
- jazzyjackson 3y ago
  right, blocks are specifically the result of a global consensus if there's not a discrete unit of appended data that all peers agree has happened, there's not a block "hashchain" maybe, but merkle tree is already plenty precise
- hinkley 3y ago
  Many of these systems also don’t have a Merkle tree, they have a Merkle linked list. Which I think contributes a lot to the syncing problem. A skip list structure where each node has multiple hashes/identities would let you skip the last five years of edits and pull down only the individual edits for the last month. The “Merkle tree” I worked on before this blockchain nonsense started was a Merkle DAG, representing a mostly linear state flow with some parallel elements.
  - r3trohack3r 3y ago
    > A skip list structure where each node has multiple hashes/identities would let you skip the last five years of edits and pull down only the individual edits for the last month. Do you have any references or reading material on this pattern? Would love to learn more.
    - 3y ago

lurtbancaster 3y ago

Admittedly my only exposure to the Secure Scuttlebutt Protocol(SSB) is through manyver.se [1] - a FOSS private(optionally) social media app. And the syncing issue you mention has been one for me too. Sometimes it's even worse - it fails to sync entirely until another app restart. Maybe this is a manyverse issue, maybe a SSB issue. Either way, hitherto at least, it doesn't seem reliable. If there are alternative ways to have an offline(over Wi-Fi/bluetooth, not internet) social media/messaging app, that works on both Android and ios, please do let me know. Thanks. [1] https://www.manyver.se/ https://www.manyver.se/

evbogue 3y ago
At a certain point in the history of SSB the manlyverse team took over the maintenance of SSB and the apps locking until the end of a sync became the norm. Prior to this there were websocket-based web and Electron apps where you could at least see that progress was being made. SSB always sank from the first post to the latest. IMO it's better to sync from the latest backwards.