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Most of the existing entries look like annoyances for pedestrians and cyclists. When these nuisance topics come up on existing community forums, like NextDoor,

Most of the existing entries look like annoyances for pedestrians and cyclists. When these nuisance topics come up on existing community forums, like NextDoor, Reddit, or City-Data, somebody usually knows somebody who knows somebody from city planning that confirms that it's an known annoyance but a compromise solution for a complex or expensive problem that needs to meet many needs. This crosswalk light needs to accommodate some critical car traffic issue, that bike lane inefficiency is the optimal solution given the inability to expand the road any wider, etc. How does your catalog go from being a wiki of annoyances that highlight intractable problems to something in dialog with the civil engineering professionals who need to weight many constraints? As a software professional, my nightmare would be somebody maintaining a permanent, public, antagonistic list of all the forced compromises I'm already frustrated with in my software. I know they're there and I hate them too, but that doesn't mean they're accidents.

bkettle 3y ago
I'm not convinced that all of these annoyances are intentional. For example, one post [1] says that it's not clear where to go at the end of a bike path. This could be resolved with a sign that might cost $500 (complete guess) to install, and there are no complex constraints in the way of installing a sign. Another post [2] highlights discontinuities on the edge of two municipal jurisdictions. Again, a reasonable fix here does not require impeding car traffic or making any huge redesigns that require a civil engineer. It's not possible for the committee that's in charge of planning an entire city to be intimately familiar with the nuances of the way every intersection works for every driver, walker, and biker that pass through them every day. The people who pass through these intersections every day, though, will understand the design oversights and deteriorations. Some proposed fixes will be feasible, others might not. I think my major goal with a site like this is to get the public involved and talking among themselves. Perhaps it's too idealistic, but I see the process of building a city to be almost entirely distinct from delivering a software product. Every resident owns their city, and though there is a group of people that are paid to maintain it, it's every resident's right and responsibility to make the city work for them. [1]: https://littlefixes.xyz/city/boston/fix/5 https://littlefixes.xyz/city/boston/fix/5 [2]: https://littlefixes.xyz/city/palo-alto/fix/2 https://littlefixes.xyz/city/palo-alto/fix/2
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  > This could be resolved with a sign that might cost $500 (complete guess) to install There's no non-offensive way to say this, so I'll just say it: if you're just randomly guessing anyway, why not pull a different number out of your head? Why not $50, or $5000? > and there are no complex constraints in the way of installing a sign. That you know of, and given your guess of how much it costs to install a sign, I'm guessing there's lots about building out civic infrastructure that you don't know about. And I don't either! We have a big road nearby that's a nightmare to cross. There's some limply blinking signs that drivers mostly ignore, and I'd love to have the city put in something better - humps, actual stop lights, etc - but there are measures in place to stop that from just happening over a weekend.
  - notatoad 3y ago
    do you know any better, or are you talking out your ass just as much as you're accusing the parent of? i have worked for a municipal government, and part of my job was installing signs in bike lanes. $500 is a pretty spot-on estimate. a sign is $50-$100 per unit at the size you'd install in a bike lane, paying the sign company to do the design and setup was about $200 (less if it's in MUTCD), paying two people (city work needs two people to do anything) to drive out and install it would be about another $100. add another $50 or so if you need to install a new break-off post. we did this multiple times in response to citizen requests, without any red tape beyond the approval of my boss who was the lowest possible level of boss in the municipal government.
basil-rash 3y ago
> As a software professional, my nightmare would be somebody maintaining a permanent, public, antagonistic list of all the forced compromises I'm already frustrated with in my software. I know they're there and I hate them too, but that doesn't mean they're accidents. I take it you’ve never worked in OSS.
- swatcoder 3y ago
  It's why I avoid it!
  - sitzkrieg 3y ago
    haha, completely agree! im still in denial about how terrible and useful seeing the misery splayed out is
woodruffw 3y ago
One a basic level: the public has a right to opine about public works and to glean insight into the decision process behind them, even if the rationale behind the public’s grievances is ultimately not well founded. (In my experience, the rationale for public layouts is “first come first serve,” meaning that the original civil engineer made a subjective design call decades ago and every subsequent change has simply accommodated it. In that way your comparison to software is apt, except for the part where I have a reasonable expectation of redress against public works and not against you.)
notatoad 3y ago
even beyond the annoyances that seems simple but are the result of a complex set of problemss, you've got the annoyances that really should be simple to fix, but are intentionally hostile to inconvenience and deter some demographic. a lot of city infrastructure is built around keeping away the people who can't afford or aren't old enough to drive.
blondelegs 3y ago
Yes yes. It’s a real shame and nightmare.

bkettle 3y ago

I'm not convinced that all of these annoyances are intentional. For example, one post [1] says that it's not clear where to go at the end of a bike path. This could be resolved with a sign that might cost $500 (complete guess) to install, and there are no complex constraints in the way of installing a sign. Another post [2] highlights discontinuities on the edge of two municipal jurisdictions. Again, a reasonable fix here does not require impeding car traffic or making any huge redesigns that require a civil engineer. It's not possible for the committee that's in charge of planning an entire city to be intimately familiar with the nuances of the way every intersection works for every driver, walker, and biker that pass through them every day. The people who pass through these intersections every day, though, will understand the design oversights and deteriorations. Some proposed fixes will be feasible, others might not. I think my major goal with a site like this is to get the public involved and talking among themselves. Perhaps it's too idealistic, but I see the process of building a city to be almost entirely distinct from delivering a software product. Every resident owns their city, and though there is a group of people that are paid to maintain it, it's every resident's right and responsibility to make the city work for them. [1]: https://littlefixes.xyz/city/boston/fix/5 https://littlefixes.xyz/city/boston/fix/5 [2]: https://littlefixes.xyz/city/palo-alto/fix/2 https://littlefixes.xyz/city/palo-alto/fix/2

pavel_lishin 3y ago
> This could be resolved with a sign that might cost $500 (complete guess) to install There's no non-offensive way to say this, so I'll just say it: if you're just randomly guessing anyway, why not pull a different number out of your head? Why not $50, or $5000? > and there are no complex constraints in the way of installing a sign. That you know of, and given your guess of how much it costs to install a sign, I'm guessing there's lots about building out civic infrastructure that you don't know about. And I don't either! We have a big road nearby that's a nightmare to cross. There's some limply blinking signs that drivers mostly ignore, and I'd love to have the city put in something better - humps, actual stop lights, etc - but there are measures in place to stop that from just happening over a weekend.
- notatoad 3y ago
  do you know any better, or are you talking out your ass just as much as you're accusing the parent of? i have worked for a municipal government, and part of my job was installing signs in bike lanes. $500 is a pretty spot-on estimate. a sign is $50-$100 per unit at the size you'd install in a bike lane, paying the sign company to do the design and setup was about $200 (less if it's in MUTCD), paying two people (city work needs two people to do anything) to drive out and install it would be about another $100. add another $50 or so if you need to install a new break-off post. we did this multiple times in response to citizen requests, without any red tape beyond the approval of my boss who was the lowest possible level of boss in the municipal government.

basil-rash 3y ago

> As a software professional, my nightmare would be somebody maintaining a permanent, public, antagonistic list of all the forced compromises I'm already frustrated with in my software. I know they're there and I hate them too, but that doesn't mean they're accidents. I take it you’ve never worked in OSS.

swatcoder 3y ago
It's why I avoid it!
- sitzkrieg 3y ago
  haha, completely agree! im still in denial about how terrible and useful seeing the misery splayed out is

woodruffw 3y ago

One a basic level: the public has a right to opine about public works and to glean insight into the decision process behind them, even if the rationale behind the public’s grievances is ultimately not well founded. (In my experience, the rationale for public layouts is “first come first serve,” meaning that the original civil engineer made a subjective design call decades ago and every subsequent change has simply accommodated it. In that way your comparison to software is apt, except for the part where I have a reasonable expectation of redress against public works and not against you.)

notatoad 3y ago

even beyond the annoyances that seems simple but are the result of a complex set of problemss, you've got the annoyances that really should be simple to fix, but are intentionally hostile to inconvenience and deter some demographic. a lot of city infrastructure is built around keeping away the people who can't afford or aren't old enough to drive.

blondelegs 3y ago

Yes yes. It’s a real shame and nightmare.