5 ms·

>I then asked about this on the apcupsd mailing list. The first response: “Something’s wrong with your..." "Returning to my thread on the apcupsd mailing list

by 1970-01-01 3y ago

>I then asked about this on the apcupsd mailing list. The first response: “Something’s wrong with your..." "Returning to my thread on the apcupsd mailing list, I asked again if there was actually anyone out there who had one of these working with non-Windows." Linux's reputation in a nutshell. It just works after you spend days checking if you have a bad device and another on the mailing list. And then you are forced to find a working alternative.

ethbr1 3y ago
Hardware validation is time consuming, boring, and expensive. Not surprising that given a mostly volunteer effort... it just doesn't happen. Or vendors self-certify their own gear.
- thayne 3y ago
  It's not like Microsoft or Apple do that either. But Vendors are more thorough with testing on those OSes.
  - mynameisvlad 3y ago
    Uhhh… what? Both Apple and Microsoft have hardware certification programs which require review. https://mfi.apple.com/ https://mfi.apple.com/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/compatibility/whcp-certification-process https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/co...
    - thayne 3y ago
      As far as I know, the actual testing is done by the vendor. It might get reviewed by an MS or Apple imployee, but that isn't the same thing as actively testing the hardware themselves. Or providing software to work with third party hardware. It's a chicken and egg problem. Hardware vendors don't worry about linux compatibility, at least for consumer/desktop products because the market share is low. But one reason lack of good hardware support hinders adoption of linux on desktop.
      - mynameisvlad 3y ago
        Both certifications require a review including sending in prototypes. That presumably includes some sort of testing from Apple/Microsoft.
        thayne 3y ago
        And what happens if it doesn't work? MS and Apple aren't going to change their software to work with the device, they will tell the vendor to fix it. But for linux it is the other way around.
        15457345234 3y ago
        You're just guessing at this point. Raymond Chen's blog 'The Old New Thing' details the steps MS took to ensure that partner vendor products _would_ work with Windows. MS tested products extensively and did modify their own product (Windows) to ensure that products supplied by partner vendors worked reliably and consistently between different windows versions.
        thayne 3y ago
        That is making sure that things that worked on an old version work on a new version. That's not the same as making sure something new works on an existing version of the OS.
gpderetta 3y ago
typically you check for linux compatibility before buying the actual hardware/software.
- ziddoap 3y ago
  >There’s an entry in nut‘s hardware compatibility list for “Back-UPS (USB)” of “supported, based on publicly available protocol”. I made the order.
  - gpderetta 3y ago
    Well, good point. In addition of wrong or incomplete compatibility lists, sometimes internal details of products change without even changing SKUs, breaking compatibility.
- angry_moose 3y ago
  I probably spent 20 hours this week trying to get a not-that-obscure piece of software that explicitly states "Debian 12" support on their website working on a freshly-installed (as in - install Debian 12, update system, install software); and it still just doesn't work. After hammering my way through 4 different errors, and hopelessly out of date (and wrong) documentation, I finally got them to issue a refund this morning. "Linux Compatibility" often means "someone got it working once 6 years ago, on an extremely out of date version of the OS, but its probably still fine".
  - graemep 3y ago
    Not often. I have nit rub into that problem, ever.
  - dingnuts 3y ago
    This is why you do an internet search instead of just looking at what the vendor says, and/or look at what the vendor actually ships for support. If you see something like a binary blob, run away. If you see stuff shipped upstream, go ahead. As a counterpoint to your experience, I've had great luck buying laptops off of Canonical's approved hardware list. As a corollary, I've had worse luck buying computers that come with Linux pre-installed, only to discover that the pre-installed distribution is very specifically and carefully configured and includes proprietary bits and it's impossible to install any other Linux on the device or upgrade it.
lbotos 3y ago
I mean -- I built a PC a few months ago and formatting the windows disk from a non windows env was not trivial. So yes, Linux is still not on par with Windows in many ways, but boy oh boy was it weirder than it should have been to format a USB drive to install windows. I lost a solid 6 hours to that try, yay it work, wait I'm getting a nonsensical error at a strange screen. Retry with different flags, with different hardware, etc etc etc.
- skirmish 3y ago
  Ditto, I was building a Windows desktop and spent hours faffing around attempting to follow official Microsoft instructions even with another Windows computer available; in desperation tried Rufus Installer, worked on the first attempt. Then months later was building another desktop and went straight to Ventoy installed from Linux and just dropping a downloaded ISO on the USB stick -- worked immediately.
HumblyTossed 3y ago
Or... Don't buy a consumer grade UPS if you want to monitor it properly.
- nickt 3y ago
  Any suggestions? Is there a power delivery equivalent of Ubiquti (I know we’ve discussed their shortcomings here) that offer better than consumer grade for less than enterprise prices?
  - HumblyTossed 3y ago
    Yeah, go with APC, just not their consumer grade stuff.
    - amluto 3y ago
      Or get something sold for off-grid use instead of as a UPS. Ecoflow is one of many vendors.
  - monitron 3y ago
    I am having good luck with Eaton so far. Rock solid and their network monitoring is noticeably less painful to use than APC's!
    - schlauerfox 3y ago
      We have widely deployed the workstation devices and have had no maintenance issues. we installed ~10 9PX models and have had 2 fail suddenly and completely just out of warranty and one with a failed battery charger, also just out of warranty, and a gigabit management card that works for a week or so then goes offline and requires local reboot from console but we have about 10 deployed with no issues too, so buy extended support because their support team is good but useless if you don't pay the protection money. We also had a rack PDU just die right out side it's warranty phase and we only bought 6. Not great quality it seems but it does the job. We had one install of a full rack UPS and it's been running for more than 7 years, but you have to keep the maintenance up and schedule battery swaps. They do make a really nice 1U lithium-ION ups also which is neat. The IPM software is a little janky but also works well.
NotYourLawyer 3y ago
Not just that, but also “this is all your fault for buying cheap trash!”

ethbr1 3y ago

Hardware validation is time consuming, boring, and expensive. Not surprising that given a mostly volunteer effort... it just doesn't happen. Or vendors self-certify their own gear.

thayne 3y ago
It's not like Microsoft or Apple do that either. But Vendors are more thorough with testing on those OSes.
- mynameisvlad 3y ago
  Uhhh… what? Both Apple and Microsoft have hardware certification programs which require review. https://mfi.apple.com/ https://mfi.apple.com/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/compatibility/whcp-certification-process https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/co...
  - thayne 3y ago
    As far as I know, the actual testing is done by the vendor. It might get reviewed by an MS or Apple imployee, but that isn't the same thing as actively testing the hardware themselves. Or providing software to work with third party hardware. It's a chicken and egg problem. Hardware vendors don't worry about linux compatibility, at least for consumer/desktop products because the market share is low. But one reason lack of good hardware support hinders adoption of linux on desktop.
    - mynameisvlad 3y ago
      Both certifications require a review including sending in prototypes. That presumably includes some sort of testing from Apple/Microsoft.
      - thayne 3y ago
        And what happens if it doesn't work? MS and Apple aren't going to change their software to work with the device, they will tell the vendor to fix it. But for linux it is the other way around.
        15457345234 3y ago
        You're just guessing at this point. Raymond Chen's blog 'The Old New Thing' details the steps MS took to ensure that partner vendor products _would_ work with Windows. MS tested products extensively and did modify their own product (Windows) to ensure that products supplied by partner vendors worked reliably and consistently between different windows versions.
        thayne 3y ago
        That is making sure that things that worked on an old version work on a new version. That's not the same as making sure something new works on an existing version of the OS.

gpderetta 3y ago

typically you check for linux compatibility before buying the actual hardware/software.

ziddoap 3y ago
>There’s an entry in nut‘s hardware compatibility list for “Back-UPS (USB)” of “supported, based on publicly available protocol”. I made the order.
- gpderetta 3y ago
  Well, good point. In addition of wrong or incomplete compatibility lists, sometimes internal details of products change without even changing SKUs, breaking compatibility.
angry_moose 3y ago
I probably spent 20 hours this week trying to get a not-that-obscure piece of software that explicitly states "Debian 12" support on their website working on a freshly-installed (as in - install Debian 12, update system, install software); and it still just doesn't work. After hammering my way through 4 different errors, and hopelessly out of date (and wrong) documentation, I finally got them to issue a refund this morning. "Linux Compatibility" often means "someone got it working once 6 years ago, on an extremely out of date version of the OS, but its probably still fine".
- graemep 3y ago
  Not often. I have nit rub into that problem, ever.
- dingnuts 3y ago
  This is why you do an internet search instead of just looking at what the vendor says, and/or look at what the vendor actually ships for support. If you see something like a binary blob, run away. If you see stuff shipped upstream, go ahead. As a counterpoint to your experience, I've had great luck buying laptops off of Canonical's approved hardware list. As a corollary, I've had worse luck buying computers that come with Linux pre-installed, only to discover that the pre-installed distribution is very specifically and carefully configured and includes proprietary bits and it's impossible to install any other Linux on the device or upgrade it.

lbotos 3y ago

I mean -- I built a PC a few months ago and formatting the windows disk from a non windows env was not trivial. So yes, Linux is still not on par with Windows in many ways, but boy oh boy was it weirder than it should have been to format a USB drive to install windows. I lost a solid 6 hours to that try, yay it work, wait I'm getting a nonsensical error at a strange screen. Retry with different flags, with different hardware, etc etc etc.

skirmish 3y ago
Ditto, I was building a Windows desktop and spent hours faffing around attempting to follow official Microsoft instructions even with another Windows computer available; in desperation tried Rufus Installer, worked on the first attempt. Then months later was building another desktop and went straight to Ventoy installed from Linux and just dropping a downloaded ISO on the USB stick -- worked immediately.

HumblyTossed 3y ago

Or... Don't buy a consumer grade UPS if you want to monitor it properly.

nickt 3y ago
Any suggestions? Is there a power delivery equivalent of Ubiquti (I know we’ve discussed their shortcomings here) that offer better than consumer grade for less than enterprise prices?
- HumblyTossed 3y ago
  Yeah, go with APC, just not their consumer grade stuff.
  - amluto 3y ago
    Or get something sold for off-grid use instead of as a UPS. Ecoflow is one of many vendors.
- monitron 3y ago
  I am having good luck with Eaton so far. Rock solid and their network monitoring is noticeably less painful to use than APC's!
  - schlauerfox 3y ago
    We have widely deployed the workstation devices and have had no maintenance issues. we installed ~10 9PX models and have had 2 fail suddenly and completely just out of warranty and one with a failed battery charger, also just out of warranty, and a gigabit management card that works for a week or so then goes offline and requires local reboot from console but we have about 10 deployed with no issues too, so buy extended support because their support team is good but useless if you don't pay the protection money. We also had a rack PDU just die right out side it's warranty phase and we only bought 6. Not great quality it seems but it does the job. We had one install of a full rack UPS and it's been running for more than 7 years, but you have to keep the maintenance up and schedule battery swaps. They do make a really nice 1U lithium-ION ups also which is neat. The IPM software is a little janky but also works well.

NotYourLawyer 3y ago

Not just that, but also “this is all your fault for buying cheap trash!”