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Which is why the forced digitalisation of everything, accompanied in almost all cases by centralisation, poses very big strategic risks that almost no-one in a

Which is why the forced digitalisation of everything, accompanied in almost all cases by centralisation, poses very big strategic risks that almost no-one in a position of power is willing to openly talk about. In the Eastern-European capital where I'm living (EU and especially NATO member bordering Ukraine) the local mayor's office has implemented a parking verification system which involves a few Town Hall cars driving around with "AI"-cameras attached and filming almost everything on sight, automatically identifying number-plates. I'm pretty sure that that system and the data stored there is a lot less secure compared with what some special security service would have put in place, and, yet, the data stored in there (basically the real-time locations and identification of almost all the cars in the downtown-ish area of this NATO capital) is just as important as anything held by said security services and labeled as "state secrets".

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Which city in Romania is doing that? Pretty sure it would be a EU GDPR violation to record and store everyone's vehicles and license plates in public spaces without their consent if there's no surveillance warrant. At least it's like that in Germany.
- paganel 3y ago
  Bucharest. This is the article about it [1], in Romanian but google translate can help, and especially you can see a photo of one of those cars at the very start of the article. [1] https://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-administratie_locala-26379925-cele-doua-masini-care-verifica-automat-daca-soferii-platit-parcarea-centrul-capitalei-functionale-joi-cum-functioneaza-sistemul-amenzi-dau.htm https://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-administratie_locala-26379925-c...
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    But how's that actually working in practice? Because last time I checked illegal street parking in Bucharest is still a shitshow where all drivers just park wherever they want because the chance of the police actually fining them is super small. So is that more for show and fearmongering drivers to not park illegally or do they actually issue and chase down fines now?
    - paganel 3y ago
      You park on a designated place and you have to pay before the AI car comes and catches you, if not, presumably you get a fine. There are still some “manual” check-ups done by people walking on foot and checking your car plates in that grand central system of theirs, those can also give you fines. As for the parking in Bucharest, things have definitely changed in the last 2-3 years, especially because of technology. The main Town Hall and some of the district Town Halls (we have six) have realized that charging people for parking money is a very handy tax, and because tech has made it a lot easier to put in place and to enforce it’s basically free money for them.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        Thanks for the explanation
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  When you park there you are obtaining a permit (paying with money/app/SMS/abonament) which, quite surprisingly, is tied to your license plate number. If they implement 'parked, didn't paid' then they are storing the license plate number for some time (at least a day, or a next day). Anyway, this is a public space and license plate numbers are a public information (just like the names of streets), which can be associated with an individual but until they are - they are not personal information.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
    >Anyway, this is a public space and license plate numbers are a public information (just like the names of streets), which can be associated with an individual but until they are - they are not personal information. The fact that the vehicle is in a public space is irrelevant, and the names of streets are an obvious straw man. Article 4(1) of the GDPR is quite clear as to what constitutes personal data: > ‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person; The fact that the natural person is identifiable by absolutely anyone (the motor vehicle licensing agency), not just the passers-by looking at the license plates, makes the license plate number personal information.
    - justsomehnguy 3y ago
      > The fact that the vehicle is in a public space is irrelevant, and the names of streets are an obvious straw man. Oh noes, now I can't publish a map with St. StreetName on it! Because Mr. Incognito lives on St. StreetName, 31! >> ‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person; > The fact that the natural person is identifiable by absolutely anyone (the motor vehicle licensing agency), not just the passers-by looking at the license plates, makes the license plate number personal information. 1 No. Associating Mr. Whatshisname with a license plate number is a personal data. The license plate number itself is not. Otherwise you should go and blur/mask all the streetnames in all the photos made in EU ever. Or disband every motor vehicle licensing agency in every EU country. And another edit: is [0] a personal data? Should Wikipedia Foundation be punished for even having that data? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BigOriginal.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BigOriginal.jpg

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

Which city in Romania is doing that? Pretty sure it would be a EU GDPR violation to record and store everyone's vehicles and license plates in public spaces without their consent if there's no surveillance warrant. At least it's like that in Germany.

paganel 3y ago
Bucharest. This is the article about it [1], in Romanian but google translate can help, and especially you can see a photo of one of those cars at the very start of the article. [1] https://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-administratie_locala-26379925-cele-doua-masini-care-verifica-automat-daca-soferii-platit-parcarea-centrul-capitalei-functionale-joi-cum-functioneaza-sistemul-amenzi-dau.htm https://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-administratie_locala-26379925-c...
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  But how's that actually working in practice? Because last time I checked illegal street parking in Bucharest is still a shitshow where all drivers just park wherever they want because the chance of the police actually fining them is super small. So is that more for show and fearmongering drivers to not park illegally or do they actually issue and chase down fines now?
  - paganel 3y ago
    You park on a designated place and you have to pay before the AI car comes and catches you, if not, presumably you get a fine. There are still some “manual” check-ups done by people walking on foot and checking your car plates in that grand central system of theirs, those can also give you fines. As for the parking in Bucharest, things have definitely changed in the last 2-3 years, especially because of technology. The main Town Hall and some of the district Town Halls (we have six) have realized that charging people for parking money is a very handy tax, and because tech has made it a lot easier to put in place and to enforce it’s basically free money for them.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Thanks for the explanation
justsomehnguy 3y ago
When you park there you are obtaining a permit (paying with money/app/SMS/abonament) which, quite surprisingly, is tied to your license plate number. If they implement 'parked, didn't paid' then they are storing the license plate number for some time (at least a day, or a next day). Anyway, this is a public space and license plate numbers are a public information (just like the names of streets), which can be associated with an individual but until they are - they are not personal information.
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
  >Anyway, this is a public space and license plate numbers are a public information (just like the names of streets), which can be associated with an individual but until they are - they are not personal information. The fact that the vehicle is in a public space is irrelevant, and the names of streets are an obvious straw man. Article 4(1) of the GDPR is quite clear as to what constitutes personal data: > ‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person; The fact that the natural person is identifiable by absolutely anyone (the motor vehicle licensing agency), not just the passers-by looking at the license plates, makes the license plate number personal information.
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    > The fact that the vehicle is in a public space is irrelevant, and the names of streets are an obvious straw man. Oh noes, now I can't publish a map with St. StreetName on it! Because Mr. Incognito lives on St. StreetName, 31! >> ‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person; > The fact that the natural person is identifiable by absolutely anyone (the motor vehicle licensing agency), not just the passers-by looking at the license plates, makes the license plate number personal information. 1 No. Associating Mr. Whatshisname with a license plate number is a personal data. The license plate number itself is not. Otherwise you should go and blur/mask all the streetnames in all the photos made in EU ever. Or disband every motor vehicle licensing agency in every EU country. And another edit: is [0] a personal data? Should Wikipedia Foundation be punished for even having that data? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BigOriginal.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BigOriginal.jpg