3 ms·

The beginning of the last paragraph made sense to me: > It’s not clear to me what you can do to level the playing field in a way that’s actually fair. But the

by lapcat 3y ago

The beginning of the last paragraph made sense to me: > It’s not clear to me what you can do to level the playing field in a way that’s actually fair. But the ending confused me: > It’s a terrible idea to make that sort of capital more important by reducing the emphasis on objective factors. In a world with disparities of "cultural capital", not to mention $30K prep schools, which factors do you consider to be objective?

rayiner 3y ago
> In a world with disparities of "cultural capital", not to mention $30K prep schools, which factors do you consider to be objective? $30k/year private school helps very little for standardized tests or Math Olympiad or things like that. In part because elite WASPs consider those things gauche. A kid from public school can be on a level playing field with my kids on the SAT by investing a couple of hundred bucks in buying old administered tests to practice on. $30k/year private school helps massively on “soft” metrics colleges look at: essays, teacher or counselor recommendations, weird coursework, work in public service, “leadership,” entrepreneurship, etc. All the shit WASPs think make for a “well rounded” student. For example, a recent thing is trying to get your kid “published” while still in high school. How many professors does a bright kid in rural Iowa know? I know dozens.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > A kid from public school can be on a level playing field with my kids on the SAT by investing a couple of hundred bucks in buying old administered tests to practice on. I thought you were dismissing test prep? "If a $1,500 test pre course can teach anything a decade of schooling that costs the public $15,000-$25,000 a year can’t teach, then those test prep companies are working magic."
  - rayiner 3y ago
    I’m not dismissing test prep altogether. My point is that test prep isn’t the huge unfair advantage it’s made out to be. It can help you familiarize yourself with the format of the test, and learn some techniques for certain kinds of problems. But at the end of the day, what’s being tested is your vocabulary, basic high school math, logical reasoning, and reading comprehension. The prep classes don’t help you with that. And insofar as the prep classes are helpful, you can get nearly all the benefits with a small investment. When I was prepping for the LSAT, I got a 167 (out of 180) on my first practice test. Nearly all my missed answers were on the “logic games” section. So I went on some Internet forums and found recommendations for PowerScore’s Logic Games Bible, which is $34 used on Amazon. I’ve got a relatively poor visual-spatial memory, so I learned some tricks in the book for using diagramming as a crutch for that. I ended up with a 176, entirely due to improvement in logic games. So I can’t say prep never helps—the difference between a 167 and a 176 is the difference between a top-25 law school and a top-10 one. But the vast majority of people can do what I did to prep. You say “what about homeless kids or kids who don’t have Internet access” but at the end of the day you’re talking about a process that’s extremely accessible to the overwhelming majority of even poor kids. Which is a lot more than you can say for any of the alternative metrics for filtering applicants.
    - lapcat 3y ago
      Ok, public and private school kids could get the same test prep for a relatively low cost, but does that mean public and private school kids are on a level playing field with regard to the test? In other words, do years of private prep school have no advantage with regard to performance on standardized tests?
      - rayiner 3y ago
        > In other words, do years of private prep school have no advantage with regard to performance on standardized tests? I would say that standardized tests is where years of private prep school makes the least difference. My wife and I are both public school kids, and our kids go to an expensive private school, and as far as I can tell there’s nothing magic about what’s taught or how it’s taught. Our motivation for private schooling is that they can counsel-out disruptive boys (so they can’t interfere with the learning of our orderly girl) and so our kids get used to socializing and dating within the right social class. I don’t think it’ll affect our kid’s SAT scores one bit.
        lapcat 3y ago
        > there’s nothing magic about what’s taught or how it’s taught Why does it have to be magic? It's simply "culture", as you've said. Indeed, your reply alludes to this: > they can counsel-out disruptive boys (so they can’t interfere with the learning of our orderly girl) Private schools usually have more disclipline, higher expectations of students, a better learning environment, and selectivity. Public schools have to take everyone, no matter how disadvantaged, disruptive, or dumb. And whatever the cause, the stats do show that private school students score significantly higher on average on the SAT. Of course disparities exist among schools, whether private or public. Education in the United States is extremely decentralized. I've never attended a private school, but I recall that when I switched public schools as a result of my family moving to a wealthier city, I was suddenly far behind in math and lost. Though I eventually caught up, I suspect that if I had remained in my old school district for my entire childhood, I would have been at a disadvantage, through no fault of my own. By the way, a few months ago I read the book "Quiet Street" by Nick McDonell, which recounts his experience at the Buckley prep school in New York. You might find it interesting, and in any case the book is quite short, so you can breeze through it.

by lapcat 3y ago

rayiner 3y ago

> In a world with disparities of "cultural capital", not to mention $30K prep schools, which factors do you consider to be objective? $30k/year private school helps very little for standardized tests or Math Olympiad or things like that. In part because elite WASPs consider those things gauche. A kid from public school can be on a level playing field with my kids on the SAT by investing a couple of hundred bucks in buying old administered tests to practice on. $30k/year private school helps massively on “soft” metrics colleges look at: essays, teacher or counselor recommendations, weird coursework, work in public service, “leadership,” entrepreneurship, etc. All the shit WASPs think make for a “well rounded” student. For example, a recent thing is trying to get your kid “published” while still in high school. How many professors does a bright kid in rural Iowa know? I know dozens.

lapcat 3y ago
> A kid from public school can be on a level playing field with my kids on the SAT by investing a couple of hundred bucks in buying old administered tests to practice on. I thought you were dismissing test prep? "If a $1,500 test pre course can teach anything a decade of schooling that costs the public $15,000-$25,000 a year can’t teach, then those test prep companies are working magic."
- rayiner 3y ago
  I’m not dismissing test prep altogether. My point is that test prep isn’t the huge unfair advantage it’s made out to be. It can help you familiarize yourself with the format of the test, and learn some techniques for certain kinds of problems. But at the end of the day, what’s being tested is your vocabulary, basic high school math, logical reasoning, and reading comprehension. The prep classes don’t help you with that. And insofar as the prep classes are helpful, you can get nearly all the benefits with a small investment. When I was prepping for the LSAT, I got a 167 (out of 180) on my first practice test. Nearly all my missed answers were on the “logic games” section. So I went on some Internet forums and found recommendations for PowerScore’s Logic Games Bible, which is $34 used on Amazon. I’ve got a relatively poor visual-spatial memory, so I learned some tricks in the book for using diagramming as a crutch for that. I ended up with a 176, entirely due to improvement in logic games. So I can’t say prep never helps—the difference between a 167 and a 176 is the difference between a top-25 law school and a top-10 one. But the vast majority of people can do what I did to prep. You say “what about homeless kids or kids who don’t have Internet access” but at the end of the day you’re talking about a process that’s extremely accessible to the overwhelming majority of even poor kids. Which is a lot more than you can say for any of the alternative metrics for filtering applicants.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    Ok, public and private school kids could get the same test prep for a relatively low cost, but does that mean public and private school kids are on a level playing field with regard to the test? In other words, do years of private prep school have no advantage with regard to performance on standardized tests?
    - rayiner 3y ago
      > In other words, do years of private prep school have no advantage with regard to performance on standardized tests? I would say that standardized tests is where years of private prep school makes the least difference. My wife and I are both public school kids, and our kids go to an expensive private school, and as far as I can tell there’s nothing magic about what’s taught or how it’s taught. Our motivation for private schooling is that they can counsel-out disruptive boys (so they can’t interfere with the learning of our orderly girl) and so our kids get used to socializing and dating within the right social class. I don’t think it’ll affect our kid’s SAT scores one bit.
      - lapcat 3y ago
        > there’s nothing magic about what’s taught or how it’s taught Why does it have to be magic? It's simply "culture", as you've said. Indeed, your reply alludes to this: > they can counsel-out disruptive boys (so they can’t interfere with the learning of our orderly girl) Private schools usually have more disclipline, higher expectations of students, a better learning environment, and selectivity. Public schools have to take everyone, no matter how disadvantaged, disruptive, or dumb. And whatever the cause, the stats do show that private school students score significantly higher on average on the SAT. Of course disparities exist among schools, whether private or public. Education in the United States is extremely decentralized. I've never attended a private school, but I recall that when I switched public schools as a result of my family moving to a wealthier city, I was suddenly far behind in math and lost. Though I eventually caught up, I suspect that if I had remained in my old school district for my entire childhood, I would have been at a disadvantage, through no fault of my own. By the way, a few months ago I read the book "Quiet Street" by Nick McDonell, which recounts his experience at the Buckley prep school in New York. You might find it interesting, and in any case the book is quite short, so you can breeze through it.