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Life and its rewards aren't perfect. Work with honest, intelligent people; genuinely do your best; your days will be much better and the odds will be with you.

LordNibbler 3y ago
reality feels like there is a mix of people with different motivations. I think the paradox exist because the odds are not clear
InSteady 3y ago
This is a great answer. The only thing I would add is that you can take mental note when you accomplish something that anticipates and preempts future needs and challenges. It is ok to make brief mention of these things from time to time when appropriate. If nothing more it helps coworkers and bosses realize that you are putting in some thought and effort for the needs of others and to make things go more smoothly behind the scenes. Doing this effectively requires tact. Try to mostly bring up your silent efforts casually, and be judicious about how often and in what situation you mention it. If it gets interpreted as an "I told you so," an excuse, self-importance, etc, then it will probably do more harm than good in terms of your standing with others. Might be helpful to some degree. But won't save you if your organization's culture simply doesn't value your work or more generally doesn't care about proactive, methodical improvements that have no flash or immediate payoff.
zinssmeister 3y ago
Great approach! For the past 2 years I keep experimenting with different ways to track day to day productivity. It has helped me tremendously in assessing how I should feel at the end of the day about my work day and the amount of time I put towards work. (I tend to overwork myself significantly). It is of course a lot harder to apply this approach to individual productivity tracking across my teams. But I do now believe, based on self experiments and within smaller teams, that there is generally a lack of visibility of knowledge worker productivity. Especially within larger companies. WFH and hybrid makes this more crucial to have for both management and self assessments on the IC level.
- ahsteele 3y ago
  What are some approaches have you used to measure your productivity?
zx8080 3y ago
> your days will be much better and the odds will be with you. In the context of one's effort valuation it seem to be a very bad advice. Unfortunately.
- epolanski 3y ago
  Intelligent people will see that you solved issues before they even happened. So in small teams where visibility is clear those things are obvious. It's in larger orgs where you want to climb the ladder that you get bonus points for the problems fixed but not those you prevented.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    It also really depends on your organization and how they quantify and reward impact. There are ways to get credit for preventing issues. Establish the baseline level of quality, broadly create classes of issue, define a plan to solve that class of issue and measure your impact relative to your goals at the end. At a big company you should be able to turn that into a number - 'this kind of issue was costing us $X/quarter, and thanks to my work, it is now costing us $(X-N)/quarter, in line with my estimates.' It's performance season so I've been giving a lot of thought to how you quantify and attribute impact especially for folks in lower-visibility roles. Not every company is going to see it this way but that's kind of a truism. Not every company sees any one kind of impact the same way, and you have to think about that relative to your career goals. I think aligning with your manager at the start, quantifying your impact and showing your results is going to get you the recognition you deserve at any company worth working at.
  - antihipocrat 3y ago
    Intelligent people are in larger orgs too. They learn very quickly that promotions aren't tied to effort and anticipating problems or resolving future problems. The intelligent, optimistic and genuinely good, helpful people who don't learn this (or refuse to compromise their good nature) end up burning out, getting performance managed or with PTSD
    - 3y ago
eszed 3y ago
> Work with honest, intelligent people That's such good advice. On the same note, it's so discouraging when someone who is not/neither takes over, those people leave (one way or another), and you have to start the search again. Or when someone is intelligent enough you don't figure out they're not honest until it's too late. <shiver> Anyone who's been around the block a time or two will accumulate those experiences. I hope I've not been jaded by mine. > Work is with honest, intelligent people Yes.
- aquarkortwo 3y ago
  > Or when someone is intelligent enough you don't figure out they're not honest until it's too late. <shiver> Very true, and it may not even be malicious on their end, just avoidance and their brain rationalizing/minimizing without them realizing it.
  - iisan7 3y ago
    (Otherwise known as pathological lies). To do as the saying says, and "know thyself" is difficult. People are prone to be overly harsh or generous when evaluating themselves.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
jqcoffey 3y ago
> Work with honest, intelligent people This is good advice that’s well intentioned, but (sorry), it can be interpreted as elitist, and in a way that’s detrimental to the reader. I am no way suggesting that this is the intention or belief of the parent, but while I’ve got more miles on my odometer than I’d prefer, they’ve informed me that “reasonable” is better than “intelligent.” My god how I’ve found that working with reasonable people is so much healthier, more productive and rewarding than working with the unreasonable* intelligent folks. *I fully grant to my current and former colleagues, friends and associates that I have been irredeemably unreasonable any number of times. Consider this a small thanks :).
- hot_cereal 3y ago
  Totally get where you're coming from, but it's also kinda splitting hairs. Being reasonable is part of being intelligent. Surrounding yourself with intelligent people doesn't necessarily mean "surround yourself with the highest IQ individuals you can find." (not saying you're saying that explicitly, just that i think you're just using a definition of intelligence that's narrower than the parent) Working well with others, understanding when one has made mistakes and being able to admit to it, understanding both the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns of a problem...these are a better mark of intelligence than a mensa membership.
  - jqcoffey 3y ago
    Yes you’re right. I guess I was mostly trying to underscore the point you’re making here by being a smidge provocative. +1.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - zilti 3y ago
    > Being reasonable is part of being intelligent Not in the slightest, those two are quite separate.
    - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
zyong812 3y ago
However, those who choose to be dishonest are more possible to be your leaders.
guappa 3y ago
> Work with honest, intelligent people I'll let you know when I find this communist utopia.
- deterministic 3y ago
  I work with people like that. I feel really lucky.
begueradj 3y ago
But most of the time you can not chose with whom to work
- fifilura 3y ago
  Then you just have to refer to the Karma bucket. "In my/their next life..."
  - begueradj 3y ago
    haha :) you are funny :)
    - fifilura 3y ago
      Maybe. But still it is in the spirit of the parent post "Life and its rewards aren't perfect". If you start micro-optimizing - especially on other people, whose behaviour you can rarely change. It may leave you with lots of frustration and completely missing the grand picture.
harimau777 3y ago
That hasn't been my experience. I don't get to choose who I work with, my days are stressful and unfulfilling, and my career has stagnated.
- abustamam 3y ago
  Sorry to hear this! At the risk of repeating what others in your life may have told you, have you considered working for a new team/company? I find it of utmost importance to find a job/career that is intrinsically fulfilling and rewarding to you. Extrinsic rewards like money are great, but you can only slog for so long for only money before you burn out. I've personally been fortunate to have been able to form a network of a bunch of different well-connected folks so I can always choose who I get to work with in the event that companies shut down or get acquired or such and such. I feel the value of such a network does not get touted often enough.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Not everyone has that option, as you say. My career was in a similar dead-end situation at one point; there was no immediate solution - nothing was going to make tomorrow or next month better than today. Finally, I accepted the solution was long-term. I made a long-term plan - to do what I really loved - and focused my attention on that, and slowly built up the resources, skills, etc. for that plan. One wonderful side effect was that the dead-end part diminished in my mind; sure, I still had to do it, it still sucked and there were some awful days, but it would pass. I didn't matter so much; those people didn't matter; it was like one of those movies where the kid knows that someday they will leave the depressing, dead-end town they are stuck in today. I hope that helps a little in your situation! Good luck!
agent281 3y ago
I'm going to add: in a place where they have the bandwidth to be honest and intelligent. Sometimes good people are in bad situations. It's important to recognize this.
borroka 3y ago
Another perspective: if you are not in a position to change the rules of the game, understand the rules of the game and play that game, not another one that you would like to play or that you think is more fair to play. Alternatively, if it is not the game you want to play, find a place where that game, or a similar one, is played.
dennis_jeeves2 3y ago
>Work with honest, intelligent people Not too many of them around, are there? You can have either honesty or intelligence but not both.

LordNibbler 3y ago

reality feels like there is a mix of people with different motivations. I think the paradox exist because the odds are not clear

InSteady 3y ago

This is a great answer. The only thing I would add is that you can take mental note when you accomplish something that anticipates and preempts future needs and challenges. It is ok to make brief mention of these things from time to time when appropriate. If nothing more it helps coworkers and bosses realize that you are putting in some thought and effort for the needs of others and to make things go more smoothly behind the scenes. Doing this effectively requires tact. Try to mostly bring up your silent efforts casually, and be judicious about how often and in what situation you mention it. If it gets interpreted as an "I told you so," an excuse, self-importance, etc, then it will probably do more harm than good in terms of your standing with others. Might be helpful to some degree. But won't save you if your organization's culture simply doesn't value your work or more generally doesn't care about proactive, methodical improvements that have no flash or immediate payoff.

zinssmeister 3y ago

Great approach! For the past 2 years I keep experimenting with different ways to track day to day productivity. It has helped me tremendously in assessing how I should feel at the end of the day about my work day and the amount of time I put towards work. (I tend to overwork myself significantly). It is of course a lot harder to apply this approach to individual productivity tracking across my teams. But I do now believe, based on self experiments and within smaller teams, that there is generally a lack of visibility of knowledge worker productivity. Especially within larger companies. WFH and hybrid makes this more crucial to have for both management and self assessments on the IC level.

ahsteele 3y ago
What are some approaches have you used to measure your productivity?

zx8080 3y ago

> your days will be much better and the odds will be with you. In the context of one's effort valuation it seem to be a very bad advice. Unfortunately.

epolanski 3y ago
Intelligent people will see that you solved issues before they even happened. So in small teams where visibility is clear those things are obvious. It's in larger orgs where you want to climb the ladder that you get bonus points for the problems fixed but not those you prevented.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  It also really depends on your organization and how they quantify and reward impact. There are ways to get credit for preventing issues. Establish the baseline level of quality, broadly create classes of issue, define a plan to solve that class of issue and measure your impact relative to your goals at the end. At a big company you should be able to turn that into a number - 'this kind of issue was costing us $X/quarter, and thanks to my work, it is now costing us $(X-N)/quarter, in line with my estimates.' It's performance season so I've been giving a lot of thought to how you quantify and attribute impact especially for folks in lower-visibility roles. Not every company is going to see it this way but that's kind of a truism. Not every company sees any one kind of impact the same way, and you have to think about that relative to your career goals. I think aligning with your manager at the start, quantifying your impact and showing your results is going to get you the recognition you deserve at any company worth working at.
- antihipocrat 3y ago
  Intelligent people are in larger orgs too. They learn very quickly that promotions aren't tied to effort and anticipating problems or resolving future problems. The intelligent, optimistic and genuinely good, helpful people who don't learn this (or refuse to compromise their good nature) end up burning out, getting performance managed or with PTSD
  - 3y ago

eszed 3y ago

> Work with honest, intelligent people That's such good advice. On the same note, it's so discouraging when someone who is not/neither takes over, those people leave (one way or another), and you have to start the search again. Or when someone is intelligent enough you don't figure out they're not honest until it's too late. <shiver> Anyone who's been around the block a time or two will accumulate those experiences. I hope I've not been jaded by mine. > Work is with honest, intelligent people Yes.

aquarkortwo 3y ago
> Or when someone is intelligent enough you don't figure out they're not honest until it's too late. <shiver> Very true, and it may not even be malicious on their end, just avoidance and their brain rationalizing/minimizing without them realizing it.
- iisan7 3y ago
  (Otherwise known as pathological lies). To do as the saying says, and "know thyself" is difficult. People are prone to be overly harsh or generous when evaluating themselves.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

jqcoffey 3y ago

> Work with honest, intelligent people This is good advice that’s well intentioned, but (sorry), it can be interpreted as elitist, and in a way that’s detrimental to the reader. I am no way suggesting that this is the intention or belief of the parent, but while I’ve got more miles on my odometer than I’d prefer, they’ve informed me that “reasonable” is better than “intelligent.” My god how I’ve found that working with reasonable people is so much healthier, more productive and rewarding than working with the unreasonable* intelligent folks. *I fully grant to my current and former colleagues, friends and associates that I have been irredeemably unreasonable any number of times. Consider this a small thanks :).

hot_cereal 3y ago
Totally get where you're coming from, but it's also kinda splitting hairs. Being reasonable is part of being intelligent. Surrounding yourself with intelligent people doesn't necessarily mean "surround yourself with the highest IQ individuals you can find." (not saying you're saying that explicitly, just that i think you're just using a definition of intelligence that's narrower than the parent) Working well with others, understanding when one has made mistakes and being able to admit to it, understanding both the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns of a problem...these are a better mark of intelligence than a mensa membership.
- jqcoffey 3y ago
  Yes you’re right. I guess I was mostly trying to underscore the point you’re making here by being a smidge provocative. +1.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- zilti 3y ago
  > Being reasonable is part of being intelligent Not in the slightest, those two are quite separate.
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago

zyong812 3y ago

However, those who choose to be dishonest are more possible to be your leaders.

guappa 3y ago

> Work with honest, intelligent people I'll let you know when I find this communist utopia.

deterministic 3y ago
I work with people like that. I feel really lucky.

begueradj 3y ago

But most of the time you can not chose with whom to work

fifilura 3y ago
Then you just have to refer to the Karma bucket. "In my/their next life..."
- begueradj 3y ago
  haha :) you are funny :)
  - fifilura 3y ago
    Maybe. But still it is in the spirit of the parent post "Life and its rewards aren't perfect". If you start micro-optimizing - especially on other people, whose behaviour you can rarely change. It may leave you with lots of frustration and completely missing the grand picture.

harimau777 3y ago

That hasn't been my experience. I don't get to choose who I work with, my days are stressful and unfulfilling, and my career has stagnated.

abustamam 3y ago
Sorry to hear this! At the risk of repeating what others in your life may have told you, have you considered working for a new team/company? I find it of utmost importance to find a job/career that is intrinsically fulfilling and rewarding to you. Extrinsic rewards like money are great, but you can only slog for so long for only money before you burn out. I've personally been fortunate to have been able to form a network of a bunch of different well-connected folks so I can always choose who I get to work with in the event that companies shut down or get acquired or such and such. I feel the value of such a network does not get touted often enough.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
wolverine876 3y ago
Not everyone has that option, as you say. My career was in a similar dead-end situation at one point; there was no immediate solution - nothing was going to make tomorrow or next month better than today. Finally, I accepted the solution was long-term. I made a long-term plan - to do what I really loved - and focused my attention on that, and slowly built up the resources, skills, etc. for that plan. One wonderful side effect was that the dead-end part diminished in my mind; sure, I still had to do it, it still sucked and there were some awful days, but it would pass. I didn't matter so much; those people didn't matter; it was like one of those movies where the kid knows that someday they will leave the depressing, dead-end town they are stuck in today. I hope that helps a little in your situation! Good luck!

agent281 3y ago

I'm going to add: in a place where they have the bandwidth to be honest and intelligent. Sometimes good people are in bad situations. It's important to recognize this.

borroka 3y ago

Another perspective: if you are not in a position to change the rules of the game, understand the rules of the game and play that game, not another one that you would like to play or that you think is more fair to play. Alternatively, if it is not the game you want to play, find a place where that game, or a similar one, is played.

dennis_jeeves2 3y ago

>Work with honest, intelligent people Not too many of them around, are there? You can have either honesty or intelligence but not both.