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Something that's always confused me in contemporary American discourse is that it's "white flight" when white people move out and "gentrification" when white pe

by asow92 3y ago

Something that's always confused me in contemporary American discourse is that it's "white flight" when white people move out and "gentrification" when white people move back in. Can someone help me grok this?

lordloki 3y ago
Sure. White people bad.
alistairSH 3y ago
I'm not sure what you're asking. The terms describe inverse/opposite movements of mostly middle-class, mostly white populations. And (very generally) white flight occurred from the 60s to the 90s or 00s. And gentrification became a "big deal" in the 00s and into the 20s (very rough year ranges - varies significantly by city).
- ghaff 3y ago
  >varies significantly by city I'd just add that gentrification of cities has been pretty selective overall. There are a ton of cities that haven't really gentrified or that have gentrified very narrowly (e.g. Detroit) in the US. One of the things that has led to housing affordability problems in that the mostly young professional influx to cities has mostly been to a fairly small selection of cities and has happened over the course of just a couple of decades.
krapp 3y ago
Gentrification is more about class than race - it's entirely possible for all black neighborhoods to be gentrified to cater to a wealthier black establishment at the expense of poor black base. At its core, gentrification is simply the result of capitalist government incentives to maximize tax revenues the way companies maximize profit. Poor people are driven out so that rich people can come in. In the US, the effect of a long history of white supremacist power structures is that class more often than not (although not always) maps to race. White flight, however, is entirely just about white people just wanting to get away from black people.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > White flight, however, is entirely just about white people just wanting to get away from black people. Redlining was one of FDR's racist policies. The resulting non-white areas were cheaper and became cheaper still than white ones for many reasons. Under LBJ, redlining was finally made illegal. Then the threat of declining property values due to "darkening" of neighborhoods could be used to clear out white neighborhoods and buy up real estate at bargain prices! That's white flight. It's a little more complicated than "I don't want to be near that person on the bus."
- hackeraccount 3y ago
  White flight in 60's/70's being just about White people want to get away from black people is hard to credit. White people were living in cities close to Black people for a long time - they suddenly decided they didn't like it? If the answer is that they suddenly started allowing Black people to buy next to White people then how would moving to the suburbs help? I mean, we can no longer redline in the city but when can still redline in the suburb county? I don't want to overstate it - some part of it clearly had to do with not wanting to live next to Black people. Some part was clearly not caring for the riots happening contemporaneously. I just think there was more going on. I've talked to my Dad about house buying in that period in the past and he mentioned places in the city that they almost bought (generally he talks about one place in the city ruefully as it's price doubled after every sale) and the places in the suburbs that they ultimately did purchase. If they settled on a detached house with a yard in the suburbs because there were only white people in the neighborhood (which was largely though not entirely true when I grew up ) he (obviously I suppose) never mentioned that. The main impression I did get was that he valued detached and yard so highly that the places they did buy seemed very cheap. I'm living in a row home in the city and I can sort of see how he must have felt. I don't really want those things that badly but the places in the city that are detached with a yard are out of my price range. A reasonable price for that - especially if the things you get from living close to city center didn't catch my fancy - would be very compelling.
harimau777 3y ago
I think that they are looking at slightly different things. As I understand it white flight criticizes that white people (at a population level, not each white person obviously) displaying behavior that suggests that they don't want to live in a multi-cultural society. Alternatively, white flight might be a criticism of defacto segregation either due to redlining or due to minorities being priced out of white neighborhoods. Gentrification refers to the residents of areas that are low cost and low income being priced out by an influx of more wealthy residents. It's also used to refer to development designed to cause that influx. Race is only a factor to the degree that wealth tends to correlate with race in the US.

by asow92 3y ago

lordloki 3y ago

Sure. White people bad.

alistairSH 3y ago

I'm not sure what you're asking. The terms describe inverse/opposite movements of mostly middle-class, mostly white populations. And (very generally) white flight occurred from the 60s to the 90s or 00s. And gentrification became a "big deal" in the 00s and into the 20s (very rough year ranges - varies significantly by city).

ghaff 3y ago
>varies significantly by city I'd just add that gentrification of cities has been pretty selective overall. There are a ton of cities that haven't really gentrified or that have gentrified very narrowly (e.g. Detroit) in the US. One of the things that has led to housing affordability problems in that the mostly young professional influx to cities has mostly been to a fairly small selection of cities and has happened over the course of just a couple of decades.

krapp 3y ago

Gentrification is more about class than race - it's entirely possible for all black neighborhoods to be gentrified to cater to a wealthier black establishment at the expense of poor black base. At its core, gentrification is simply the result of capitalist government incentives to maximize tax revenues the way companies maximize profit. Poor people are driven out so that rich people can come in. In the US, the effect of a long history of white supremacist power structures is that class more often than not (although not always) maps to race. White flight, however, is entirely just about white people just wanting to get away from black people.

drewcoo 3y ago
> White flight, however, is entirely just about white people just wanting to get away from black people. Redlining was one of FDR's racist policies. The resulting non-white areas were cheaper and became cheaper still than white ones for many reasons. Under LBJ, redlining was finally made illegal. Then the threat of declining property values due to "darkening" of neighborhoods could be used to clear out white neighborhoods and buy up real estate at bargain prices! That's white flight. It's a little more complicated than "I don't want to be near that person on the bus."
hackeraccount 3y ago
White flight in 60's/70's being just about White people want to get away from black people is hard to credit. White people were living in cities close to Black people for a long time - they suddenly decided they didn't like it? If the answer is that they suddenly started allowing Black people to buy next to White people then how would moving to the suburbs help? I mean, we can no longer redline in the city but when can still redline in the suburb county? I don't want to overstate it - some part of it clearly had to do with not wanting to live next to Black people. Some part was clearly not caring for the riots happening contemporaneously. I just think there was more going on. I've talked to my Dad about house buying in that period in the past and he mentioned places in the city that they almost bought (generally he talks about one place in the city ruefully as it's price doubled after every sale) and the places in the suburbs that they ultimately did purchase. If they settled on a detached house with a yard in the suburbs because there were only white people in the neighborhood (which was largely though not entirely true when I grew up ) he (obviously I suppose) never mentioned that. The main impression I did get was that he valued detached and yard so highly that the places they did buy seemed very cheap. I'm living in a row home in the city and I can sort of see how he must have felt. I don't really want those things that badly but the places in the city that are detached with a yard are out of my price range. A reasonable price for that - especially if the things you get from living close to city center didn't catch my fancy - would be very compelling.

harimau777 3y ago

I think that they are looking at slightly different things. As I understand it white flight criticizes that white people (at a population level, not each white person obviously) displaying behavior that suggests that they don't want to live in a multi-cultural society. Alternatively, white flight might be a criticism of defacto segregation either due to redlining or due to minorities being priced out of white neighborhoods. Gentrification refers to the residents of areas that are low cost and low income being priced out by an influx of more wealthy residents. It's also used to refer to development designed to cause that influx. Race is only a factor to the degree that wealth tends to correlate with race in the US.