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> It seems perfectly reasonable to say that generated imagery should attempt to not lean into stereotypes and show a diverse set of people. When stereotypes cl

by ethbr1 3y ago

> It seems perfectly reasonable to say that generated imagery should attempt to not lean into stereotypes and show a diverse set of people. When stereotypes clash with historical facts, facts should win. Hallucinating diversity where there was none simply sweeps historical failures under the rug. If it wants to take a situation where diversity is possible and highlight that diversity, fine. But that seems a tall order for LLMs these days, as it's getting into historical comprehension.

wakawaka28 3y ago
>Hallucinating diversity where there was none simply sweeps historical failures under the rug. Failures and successes. You can't get this thing to generate any white people at all, no matter how explicitly or implicitly you ask.
- ikt 3y ago
  > You can't get this thing to generate any white people at all, no matter how explicitly or implicitly you ask You sure about that mate? https://imgur.com/IV4yUos https://imgur.com/IV4yUos
  - wakawaka28 3y ago
    Idk, but watch this live demo: https://youtube.com/watch?v=69vx8ozQv-s https://youtube.com/watch?v=69vx8ozQv-s He couldn't do it. There could have been multiple versions of Gemini active at any given time. Or, A/B testing, or somehow they faked it to help Google out. Or maybe they fixed it already, less than 24 hours after hitting the press. But the current fix is to not do images at all.
    - ikt 3y ago
      You could have literally done the test yourself as I did only a day ago but instead link me to some Youtuber who according to Wikipedia: > In 2023, The New York Times described Pool's podcast as "extreme right-wing", and Pool himself as "right-wing" and a "provocateur".
      - Izkata 3y ago
        Which is kinda funny because the majority of his content is reading articles from places like the New York Times. They're just straight up lying about him.
      - wakawaka28 3y ago
        [dead]
dartos 3y ago
I think the root problem is assuming that these generated images are representations of anything. Nobody should. They’re literally semi-random graphic artifacts that we humans give 100% of the meaning to.
- gruez 3y ago
  So you're saying whatever the model doesn't have to be tethered to reality at all? I wonder if you think the same for chatgpt. Do you think it should just make up whatever it wants when asked a question like "why does it rain?". After all, you can say the words generated are also semi-random sequence of letters that humans give meaning too.
  - InitialLastName 3y ago
    > Do you think it should just make up whatever it wants when asked a question like "why does it rain?" Always doing that would be preferable to the status quo, where it does it just often enough to do damage while retaining a veneer of credibility.
  - dartos 3y ago
    I think going to a statistics based generator with the intention to take what you see as an accurate representation of reality is a non starter. The model isn’t trying to replicate reality, it’s trying to minimize some error metric. Sure it may be inspired by reality, but should never be considered an authority on reality. And yes, the words an LLM write have no meaning. We assign meaning to the output. There was no intention behind them. The fact that some models can perfectly recall _some_ information that appears frequently in the training data is a happy accident. Remember, transformers were initially designed for translation tasks.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  > They’re literally semi-random graphic artifacts that we humans give 100% of the meaning to. They're graphic artifacts generated semi-randomly from a training set of human-created material. That's not quite the same thing, as otherwise the "adjustment" here wouldn't have been considered by Google in the first place.
EchoChamberMan 3y ago
Why should facts win? It's art, and there are no rules in art. I could draw black george washington too. [edit] Statistical inference machines following human language prompts that include "please" and "thank you" have absolutely 0 ideas of what a fact is. "A stick bug doesn't know what it's like to be a stick."
- gruez 3y ago
  Art doesn't have to be tethered to reality, but I think it's reasonable to assume that a generic image generation ai should generate images according to reality. There's no rules in art, but people would be pretty baffled if every image that was generated by gemeni was in dr seuss's art style by default. If they called it "dr seuss ai" I don't think anyone would care. Likewise, if they explicitly labeled gemini as "diverse image generation" or whatever most of the backlash would evaporate.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  If there are no rules in art, then white George Washington should be acceptable. But I would counter that there are certainly rules in art. Both historical (expectations and real history) and factual (humans have a number of arms less than or equal to 2). If you ask Gemini to give you an image of a person and it returns a Pollock drip work... most people aren't going to be pleased.
- pb7 3y ago
  Because white people exist and it refuses to draw them when asked explicitly. It doesn’t refuse for any other race.
- ilikehurdles 3y ago
  If you try to draw white George Washington but the markers you use keep spitting out different colors from the ones you picked, you’d throw out the entire set and stop buying that brand of art supplies in the future.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

by ethbr1 3y ago

wakawaka28 3y ago

>Hallucinating diversity where there was none simply sweeps historical failures under the rug. Failures and successes. You can't get this thing to generate any white people at all, no matter how explicitly or implicitly you ask.

ikt 3y ago
> You can't get this thing to generate any white people at all, no matter how explicitly or implicitly you ask You sure about that mate? https://imgur.com/IV4yUos https://imgur.com/IV4yUos
- wakawaka28 3y ago
  Idk, but watch this live demo: https://youtube.com/watch?v=69vx8ozQv-s https://youtube.com/watch?v=69vx8ozQv-s He couldn't do it. There could have been multiple versions of Gemini active at any given time. Or, A/B testing, or somehow they faked it to help Google out. Or maybe they fixed it already, less than 24 hours after hitting the press. But the current fix is to not do images at all.
  - ikt 3y ago
    You could have literally done the test yourself as I did only a day ago but instead link me to some Youtuber who according to Wikipedia: > In 2023, The New York Times described Pool's podcast as "extreme right-wing", and Pool himself as "right-wing" and a "provocateur".
    - Izkata 3y ago
      Which is kinda funny because the majority of his content is reading articles from places like the New York Times. They're just straight up lying about him.
    - wakawaka28 3y ago
      [dead]

dartos 3y ago

I think the root problem is assuming that these generated images are representations of anything. Nobody should. They’re literally semi-random graphic artifacts that we humans give 100% of the meaning to.

gruez 3y ago
So you're saying whatever the model doesn't have to be tethered to reality at all? I wonder if you think the same for chatgpt. Do you think it should just make up whatever it wants when asked a question like "why does it rain?". After all, you can say the words generated are also semi-random sequence of letters that humans give meaning too.
- InitialLastName 3y ago
  > Do you think it should just make up whatever it wants when asked a question like "why does it rain?" Always doing that would be preferable to the status quo, where it does it just often enough to do damage while retaining a veneer of credibility.
- dartos 3y ago
  I think going to a statistics based generator with the intention to take what you see as an accurate representation of reality is a non starter. The model isn’t trying to replicate reality, it’s trying to minimize some error metric. Sure it may be inspired by reality, but should never be considered an authority on reality. And yes, the words an LLM write have no meaning. We assign meaning to the output. There was no intention behind them. The fact that some models can perfectly recall _some_ information that appears frequently in the training data is a happy accident. Remember, transformers were initially designed for translation tasks.
ethbr1 3y ago
> They’re literally semi-random graphic artifacts that we humans give 100% of the meaning to. They're graphic artifacts generated semi-randomly from a training set of human-created material. That's not quite the same thing, as otherwise the "adjustment" here wouldn't have been considered by Google in the first place.

EchoChamberMan 3y ago

Why should facts win? It's art, and there are no rules in art. I could draw black george washington too. [edit] Statistical inference machines following human language prompts that include "please" and "thank you" have absolutely 0 ideas of what a fact is. "A stick bug doesn't know what it's like to be a stick."

gruez 3y ago
Art doesn't have to be tethered to reality, but I think it's reasonable to assume that a generic image generation ai should generate images according to reality. There's no rules in art, but people would be pretty baffled if every image that was generated by gemeni was in dr seuss's art style by default. If they called it "dr seuss ai" I don't think anyone would care. Likewise, if they explicitly labeled gemini as "diverse image generation" or whatever most of the backlash would evaporate.
ethbr1 3y ago
If there are no rules in art, then white George Washington should be acceptable. But I would counter that there are certainly rules in art. Both historical (expectations and real history) and factual (humans have a number of arms less than or equal to 2). If you ask Gemini to give you an image of a person and it returns a Pollock drip work... most people aren't going to be pleased.
pb7 3y ago
Because white people exist and it refuses to draw them when asked explicitly. It doesn’t refuse for any other race.
ilikehurdles 3y ago
If you try to draw white George Washington but the markers you use keep spitting out different colors from the ones you picked, you’d throw out the entire set and stop buying that brand of art supplies in the future.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]