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This does not matter at all because foreign-born people are exactly as much American and exactly as much of a worthwhile person as native-born people

by alexb_ 3y ago

rayiner 3y ago
What an absurd notion. As a first generation immigrant, I’m in no way “just as American” as my wife, whose family settled the west coast in the wagon trails. That assertion reduces the concept of nationality to nothing. If my ancestors had shaped the America that exists today it would look very different!
- alexb_ 3y ago
  > As a first generation immigrant, I’m in no way “just as American” as my wife, whose family settled the west coast in the wagon trails. I don't know who convinced you of this notion, but it's 100% horseshit. You absolutely are just as much of an American as anyone else living here. America as a country is founded on the contributions of all of the people who moved here. The concept of "nationality" meaning you must have roots here, or that you must look like an "American", is just complete garbage. If you're a citizen, you're an American, and that's all there is to it.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    > I don't know who convinced you of this notion, but it's 100% horseshit. Marrying an American and observing the massive cultural differences between our families convinced me of it. > You absolutely are just as much of an American as anyone else living here. Only if you’re using “american” tautologically to refer to “American citizenship.” And even then, the Constitution recognizes that naturalized citizens are less American than native-born ones, since we can’t run for President. > America as a country is founded on the contributions of all of the people who moved here. America is a country founded by British colonists. The country’s legal and political system, and most of its culture, comes from that founding population. Depending on the geography, there’s an overlay of German, Dutch, Italian, or Spanish culture. In specific areas, Americans that are part of the Jewish diaspora have had a significant influence. The influence of almost everyone else is localized or superficial. E.g. you can get Vietnamese or Thai food almost everywhere in the country, but the influence of Vietnamese or Thai language, culture, religion, etc., in American society at large is close to zero. When people in my home country think of an “American” they think of people of British descent. They don’t think of Italian immigrants. Similarly, if you relocated the population of say Bangladesh to the US, and gave everyone US citizenship, they wouldn’t suddenly become “American.” Culture matters, and a population’s culture is extremely durable: https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=35594 https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=35594 (“In The Culture Transplant, Garett Jones documents the cultural foundations of cross-country income differences, showing that immigrants import cultural attitudes from their homelands—toward saving, toward trust, and toward the role of government—that persist for decades, and likely for centuries, in their new national homes. Full assimilation in a generation or two, Jones reports, is a myth.”). The American founders clearly recognized as much when they created a distinction between native-born citizens and naturalized citizens and wrote it into the Constitution.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - exclusiv 3y ago
      > When people in my home country think of an “American” they think of people of British descent. Your home county is just completely wrong in their understanding. Top 3 Ancestry groups (2015 Census) are actually 1) German, 2) Black/African-American and 3) Mexican. English comes in #5. [1] If you tally English/Scottish/Welsh, you are only talking about 10% of the US population is British descent. And that was from the Census in 2015. In 2020 they had a White category which was #1, and only 8.2M identified explicitly as English and 1.75M as Welsh. > if you relocated the population of say Bangladesh to the US, and gave everyone US citizenship, they wouldn’t suddenly become “American.” They would. You don't have to adhere to some sort of defined American culture or fully assimilate into it, it's not Denmark. If you travel to NYC, Miami, Atlanta, New Orleans, Iowa, LA, San Fran, Dallas, Seattle, you are going to get different people and experiences and cultures. I can assure you they are all very much Americans. I'd argue that those that worry about a scale of Americanism and where they'd place their own fellow citizens are actually the least American if anything. We can call it the American Culture Paradox. Those that think they are the most American and categorize or judge others are actually the least American! > The American founders clearly recognized as much when they created a distinction between native-born citizens and naturalized citizens and wrote it into the Constitution. Yes because they had such massive distrust for the monarchy they didn't want outsiders infiltrating and taking over their new government and country. [1] https://www.infoplease.com/us/race/ancestry-us-population-rank https://www.infoplease.com/us/race/ancestry-us-population-ra... (2015 Results)
      - rayiner 3y ago
        > Top 3 Ancestry groups (2015 Census) are actually 1) German, 2) Black/African-American and 3) Mexican. English comes in #5. If you tally English/Scottish/Welsh, you are only talking about 10% of the US population is British descent. And yet, the vast majority of American language, culture, law, civil institutions, etc., come from the British. That’s why there are deep similarities between the Anglo countries on a variety of dimensions. > They would. You don't have to adhere to some sort of defined American culture or fully assimilate into it, it's not Denmark. You’re playing a word game where “American” is some shallow legal distinction, but “Danish” implies both a legal definition and a cultural one. Americans have a distinctive history, culture, and worldview which recent immigrants do not share. My parents were fully formed when they came to America at the age of 39. They aren’t American in anything other than a narrow legal sense. They don’t share American values, they aren’t the product of American history, etc. They are Bangladeshis—they think like Bangladeshis, embrace Bangladeshi values, etc. My kids are markedly different in worldview and values from my parents (in ways that are often quite disconcerting to me, as an immigrant who is only halfway to American). Other Bangladeshis would instantly recognize that “your kids are Americanized.” You can chafe at the label because it offends your sense of multiculturalism, but the phenomenon exists and is instantly recognizable regardless of what label you use.
  - exclusiv 3y ago
    100%! I posted data on American ancestry below which is pretty eye opening. My grandfather was an American of German ancestry and served in the 95th infantry fighting in Europe in WW2. He's just as American as the wagon trail people. And Arnold Schwarzenegger is just as American as both of them too.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Are you suggesting immigrants, especially ones that immigrate and follow the byzantine naturalization process, and build a life here, many times working the most undesirable jobs for low pay, do not shape the America that exists today?
  - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
    Yes, they do shape America--by making it poorer, more socialist (but I repeat myself), and less unique i.e. more like the rest of the world--low-trust societies with rain-soaked garbage strewn everywhere
iraqmtpizza 3y ago
Actually, no. Many are not even permanent residents, let alone citizens.

This does not matter at all because foreign-born people are exactly as much American and exactly as much of a worthwhile person as native-born people

by alexb_ 3y ago

This does not matter at all because foreign-born people are exactly as much American and exactly as much of a worthwhile person as native-born people

rayiner 3y ago

What an absurd notion. As a first generation immigrant, I’m in no way “just as American” as my wife, whose family settled the west coast in the wagon trails. That assertion reduces the concept of nationality to nothing. If my ancestors had shaped the America that exists today it would look very different!

alexb_ 3y ago
> As a first generation immigrant, I’m in no way “just as American” as my wife, whose family settled the west coast in the wagon trails. I don't know who convinced you of this notion, but it's 100% horseshit. You absolutely are just as much of an American as anyone else living here. America as a country is founded on the contributions of all of the people who moved here. The concept of "nationality" meaning you must have roots here, or that you must look like an "American", is just complete garbage. If you're a citizen, you're an American, and that's all there is to it.
- rayiner 3y ago
  > I don't know who convinced you of this notion, but it's 100% horseshit. Marrying an American and observing the massive cultural differences between our families convinced me of it. > You absolutely are just as much of an American as anyone else living here. Only if you’re using “american” tautologically to refer to “American citizenship.” And even then, the Constitution recognizes that naturalized citizens are less American than native-born ones, since we can’t run for President. > America as a country is founded on the contributions of all of the people who moved here. America is a country founded by British colonists. The country’s legal and political system, and most of its culture, comes from that founding population. Depending on the geography, there’s an overlay of German, Dutch, Italian, or Spanish culture. In specific areas, Americans that are part of the Jewish diaspora have had a significant influence. The influence of almost everyone else is localized or superficial. E.g. you can get Vietnamese or Thai food almost everywhere in the country, but the influence of Vietnamese or Thai language, culture, religion, etc., in American society at large is close to zero. When people in my home country think of an “American” they think of people of British descent. They don’t think of Italian immigrants. Similarly, if you relocated the population of say Bangladesh to the US, and gave everyone US citizenship, they wouldn’t suddenly become “American.” Culture matters, and a population’s culture is extremely durable: https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=35594 https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=35594 (“In The Culture Transplant, Garett Jones documents the cultural foundations of cross-country income differences, showing that immigrants import cultural attitudes from their homelands—toward saving, toward trust, and toward the role of government—that persist for decades, and likely for centuries, in their new national homes. Full assimilation in a generation or two, Jones reports, is a myth.”). The American founders clearly recognized as much when they created a distinction between native-born citizens and naturalized citizens and wrote it into the Constitution.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - exclusiv 3y ago
    > When people in my home country think of an “American” they think of people of British descent. Your home county is just completely wrong in their understanding. Top 3 Ancestry groups (2015 Census) are actually 1) German, 2) Black/African-American and 3) Mexican. English comes in #5. [1] If you tally English/Scottish/Welsh, you are only talking about 10% of the US population is British descent. And that was from the Census in 2015. In 2020 they had a White category which was #1, and only 8.2M identified explicitly as English and 1.75M as Welsh. > if you relocated the population of say Bangladesh to the US, and gave everyone US citizenship, they wouldn’t suddenly become “American.” They would. You don't have to adhere to some sort of defined American culture or fully assimilate into it, it's not Denmark. If you travel to NYC, Miami, Atlanta, New Orleans, Iowa, LA, San Fran, Dallas, Seattle, you are going to get different people and experiences and cultures. I can assure you they are all very much Americans. I'd argue that those that worry about a scale of Americanism and where they'd place their own fellow citizens are actually the least American if anything. We can call it the American Culture Paradox. Those that think they are the most American and categorize or judge others are actually the least American! > The American founders clearly recognized as much when they created a distinction between native-born citizens and naturalized citizens and wrote it into the Constitution. Yes because they had such massive distrust for the monarchy they didn't want outsiders infiltrating and taking over their new government and country. [1] https://www.infoplease.com/us/race/ancestry-us-population-rank https://www.infoplease.com/us/race/ancestry-us-population-ra... (2015 Results)
    - rayiner 3y ago
      > Top 3 Ancestry groups (2015 Census) are actually 1) German, 2) Black/African-American and 3) Mexican. English comes in #5. If you tally English/Scottish/Welsh, you are only talking about 10% of the US population is British descent. And yet, the vast majority of American language, culture, law, civil institutions, etc., come from the British. That’s why there are deep similarities between the Anglo countries on a variety of dimensions. > They would. You don't have to adhere to some sort of defined American culture or fully assimilate into it, it's not Denmark. You’re playing a word game where “American” is some shallow legal distinction, but “Danish” implies both a legal definition and a cultural one. Americans have a distinctive history, culture, and worldview which recent immigrants do not share. My parents were fully formed when they came to America at the age of 39. They aren’t American in anything other than a narrow legal sense. They don’t share American values, they aren’t the product of American history, etc. They are Bangladeshis—they think like Bangladeshis, embrace Bangladeshi values, etc. My kids are markedly different in worldview and values from my parents (in ways that are often quite disconcerting to me, as an immigrant who is only halfway to American). Other Bangladeshis would instantly recognize that “your kids are Americanized.” You can chafe at the label because it offends your sense of multiculturalism, but the phenomenon exists and is instantly recognizable regardless of what label you use.
- exclusiv 3y ago
  100%! I posted data on American ancestry below which is pretty eye opening. My grandfather was an American of German ancestry and served in the 95th infantry fighting in Europe in WW2. He's just as American as the wagon trail people. And Arnold Schwarzenegger is just as American as both of them too.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
Are you suggesting immigrants, especially ones that immigrate and follow the byzantine naturalization process, and build a life here, many times working the most undesirable jobs for low pay, do not shape the America that exists today?
- iraqmtpizza 3y ago
  Yes, they do shape America--by making it poorer, more socialist (but I repeat myself), and less unique i.e. more like the rest of the world--low-trust societies with rain-soaked garbage strewn everywhere

iraqmtpizza 3y ago

Actually, no. Many are not even permanent residents, let alone citizens.