3 ms·

GIMP is one of those things which make me wonder what GNU actually is. It's the GNU Image Manipulation Program, but it's very obviously dramatically and chronic

by mort96 3y ago

GIMP is one of those things which make me wonder what GNU actually is. It's the GNU Image Manipulation Program, but it's very obviously dramatically and chronically understaffed. What about the GNU project is preventing them from putting more resources into their image editor? This is not a criticism of the individuals who write code for GIMP.

reddalo 3y ago
"GNU" as in GNU-licensed program. It's not maintained directly by the Free Software Foundation.
- mort96 3y ago
  You're just making this up aren't you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIMP#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIMP#History The application subsequently formed part of the GNU software collection And it's part of the list of "GNU Software" on this page: https://www.gnu.org/software/software.html https://www.gnu.org/software/software.html (And no, that's not a list of all GPL-licensed software, it's a list of GNU software). You're correct that it's not "maintained directly by the FSF", that's not how GNU operates, but I feel that GNU and the FSF has a responsibility for the health of the projects which are part of the GNU project.
  - arp242 3y ago
    https://www.gimp.org/develop/ https://www.gimp.org/develop/ says "historically part of the GNU Project". I don't really know the current status or feelings of the GIMP developers, but I know GTK and GNOME have formally disassociated themselves from GNU, but it took them many years to get de-listed on that GNU packages page as Stallman flat-out refused to do so, as he believed that projects are unable to disassociate from GNU. The GnuTLS people have had similar problems. It's still listed on that project page. My point is: that page only reflects what Richard Stallman considers to be part of GNU, not what the developers of that project feel.
    - mort96 3y ago
      Well, https://www.gnu.org/software/software.html https://www.gnu.org/software/software.html says it's currently a part of the GNU project. It does not list GNOME or GTK, FWIW.
      - arp242 3y ago
        Yes, and like I said, it took the GTK/GNOME people years of complaining to get them removed, and the GnuTLS people still aren't removed after more than 10 years of complaining. LWN and other people documented the background on all of this to some extent, and if you're interested I think I have a text file with some link/details somewhere (which I can't seen to find momentarily). So that list is worth bugger all for the purpose of this discussion.
        mort96 3y ago
        No, it's worth quite a lot in this discussion, actually. It tells us that the GNU project considers GIMP part of the GNU project, regardless of what the GIMP project thinks. That means that the question "why does the GNU project not provide adequate resources to GIMP" is perfectly appropriate.
        arp242 3y ago
        No matter what Stallman thinks, this kind of relationship is a two-way street. GNU or the FSF can't just unilaterally declare it to be "part of GNU" and then unilaterally "provide resources". Not only are they unlikely to do so if the relationship is adversarial, this sort of thing needs cooperation from the other side as well. Either way, this is getting a little tiresome. I have explained there are disputes and complexities about what is or isn't a "GNU project" and I don't quite understand how anyone can deny that these disputes and complexities exist (regardless of how one might feel about them).
amenhotep 3y ago
Perhaps an inherent problem with defining yourself in terms of what you're not :)
dagw 3y ago
What about the GNU project is preventing them from putting more resources into their image editor? The FSF, which manages the GNU project, doesn't really have any resources of their own to put into any of the GNU projects. Their role is almost entirely advocacy and some coordination, all actual development is done by volunteers. The GNU project has many many projects that are far more neglected than GIMP, and GIMP is probably on of their more active and well supported 'normal' end user applications.
- mort96 3y ago
  But why? Why has the FSF neglected GNU, why has the FSF neglected themselves by not ensuring they have the funding necessary to manage a project of the scale and importance of GNU?
  - SiempreViernes 3y ago
    What part of "entirely volunteers" is not clear to you?
    - mort96 3y ago
      What part of "why" is not clear to you?
      - mixmastamyk 3y ago
        Why is money not falling from the skies? Well…
  - dagw 3y ago
    But why? Mostly ideological I would guess. The sorts of people the were/are running the FSF didn't want to involve themselves with the sort of 'dirty' compromises needed to raise significant funds and end up beholden to large, almost certainly corporate, donors. This is one of the main reasons why Free Software lost the 'war' to Open Source back in the day.
  - Pinus 3y ago
mort96 3y ago
Someone seriously has to tell me why all my comments in this tree are getting downvoted, it's a valid question is it not?
- hoppyhoppy2 3y ago
  >Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- Andrex 3y ago
  To be fair to you, I think it's a valuable comment and the replies were insightful to me. Maybe your comment was being read as anti-Gimp (Gimp stories always get a lot of low-effort "Why hasn't Gimp done <x> yet??" comments). I love Gimp and I upvoted your comment because I've wondered similar things too -- just what is the relationship between GNU and GIMP? That relationship seems to be a little confusing going by this thread, so I think your comment was warranted!
arp242 3y ago
> What about the GNU project is preventing them from putting more resources into their image editor? Does GNU or the FSF ever "put resources" towards a project? Last time I checked, almost all of the FSF's expenditures are towards advocacy. Aside from that they run some horribly outdated infra like that Savannah thing that many projects opt-out of because it's horrible.

by mort96 3y ago

reddalo 3y ago

"GNU" as in GNU-licensed program. It's not maintained directly by the Free Software Foundation.

mort96 3y ago
You're just making this up aren't you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIMP#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIMP#History The application subsequently formed part of the GNU software collection And it's part of the list of "GNU Software" on this page: https://www.gnu.org/software/software.html https://www.gnu.org/software/software.html (And no, that's not a list of all GPL-licensed software, it's a list of GNU software). You're correct that it's not "maintained directly by the FSF", that's not how GNU operates, but I feel that GNU and the FSF has a responsibility for the health of the projects which are part of the GNU project.
- arp242 3y ago
  https://www.gimp.org/develop/ https://www.gimp.org/develop/ says "historically part of the GNU Project". I don't really know the current status or feelings of the GIMP developers, but I know GTK and GNOME have formally disassociated themselves from GNU, but it took them many years to get de-listed on that GNU packages page as Stallman flat-out refused to do so, as he believed that projects are unable to disassociate from GNU. The GnuTLS people have had similar problems. It's still listed on that project page. My point is: that page only reflects what Richard Stallman considers to be part of GNU, not what the developers of that project feel.
  - mort96 3y ago
    Well, https://www.gnu.org/software/software.html https://www.gnu.org/software/software.html says it's currently a part of the GNU project. It does not list GNOME or GTK, FWIW.
    - arp242 3y ago
      Yes, and like I said, it took the GTK/GNOME people years of complaining to get them removed, and the GnuTLS people still aren't removed after more than 10 years of complaining. LWN and other people documented the background on all of this to some extent, and if you're interested I think I have a text file with some link/details somewhere (which I can't seen to find momentarily). So that list is worth bugger all for the purpose of this discussion.
      - mort96 3y ago
        No, it's worth quite a lot in this discussion, actually. It tells us that the GNU project considers GIMP part of the GNU project, regardless of what the GIMP project thinks. That means that the question "why does the GNU project not provide adequate resources to GIMP" is perfectly appropriate.
        arp242 3y ago
        No matter what Stallman thinks, this kind of relationship is a two-way street. GNU or the FSF can't just unilaterally declare it to be "part of GNU" and then unilaterally "provide resources". Not only are they unlikely to do so if the relationship is adversarial, this sort of thing needs cooperation from the other side as well. Either way, this is getting a little tiresome. I have explained there are disputes and complexities about what is or isn't a "GNU project" and I don't quite understand how anyone can deny that these disputes and complexities exist (regardless of how one might feel about them).

amenhotep 3y ago

Perhaps an inherent problem with defining yourself in terms of what you're not :)

dagw 3y ago

What about the GNU project is preventing them from putting more resources into their image editor? The FSF, which manages the GNU project, doesn't really have any resources of their own to put into any of the GNU projects. Their role is almost entirely advocacy and some coordination, all actual development is done by volunteers. The GNU project has many many projects that are far more neglected than GIMP, and GIMP is probably on of their more active and well supported 'normal' end user applications.

mort96 3y ago
But why? Why has the FSF neglected GNU, why has the FSF neglected themselves by not ensuring they have the funding necessary to manage a project of the scale and importance of GNU?
- SiempreViernes 3y ago
  What part of "entirely volunteers" is not clear to you?
  - mort96 3y ago
    What part of "why" is not clear to you?
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      Why is money not falling from the skies? Well…
- dagw 3y ago
  But why? Mostly ideological I would guess. The sorts of people the were/are running the FSF didn't want to involve themselves with the sort of 'dirty' compromises needed to raise significant funds and end up beholden to large, almost certainly corporate, donors. This is one of the main reasons why Free Software lost the 'war' to Open Source back in the day.
- Pinus 3y ago

mort96 3y ago

Someone seriously has to tell me why all my comments in this tree are getting downvoted, it's a valid question is it not?

hoppyhoppy2 3y ago
>Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Andrex 3y ago
To be fair to you, I think it's a valuable comment and the replies were insightful to me. Maybe your comment was being read as anti-Gimp (Gimp stories always get a lot of low-effort "Why hasn't Gimp done <x> yet??" comments). I love Gimp and I upvoted your comment because I've wondered similar things too -- just what is the relationship between GNU and GIMP? That relationship seems to be a little confusing going by this thread, so I think your comment was warranted!

arp242 3y ago

> What about the GNU project is preventing them from putting more resources into their image editor? Does GNU or the FSF ever "put resources" towards a project? Last time I checked, almost all of the FSF's expenditures are towards advocacy. Aside from that they run some horribly outdated infra like that Savannah thing that many projects opt-out of because it's horrible.