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The App Store has a monopoly on iOS app distribution. It’s becoming tiring listening to people stating “that’s not THE market so it can’t be a monopoly” when l

The App Store has a monopoly on iOS app distribution. It’s becoming tiring listening to people stating “that’s not THE market so it can’t be a monopoly” when legislation already disagrees with you.

lolinder 3y ago
The current situation is that legislation in the EU disagrees with that claim, but a court ruling in the US agrees that defining the market as "iOS app distribution" is too narrow [0]. Until something changes, which definition of the market is accurate depends on your jurisdiction. [0] https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca9/21-16506/21-16506-2023-04-24.html https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca9/21...
Turing_Machine 3y ago
McDonalds is the only company that can distribute Big Macs. You can't buy a Big Mac anywhere but McDonalds. That doesn't make McDonalds a "monopoly".
- gkbrk 3y ago
  But that's not quite the same situation with Apple. It's more like if your Big Mac didn't support being eaten with non-McDonalds-approved Ketchup or Mayo.
  - paulmd 3y ago
    Do restaurants not have the “no outside food/drink allowed” stickers on the doors where you live?
    - gkbrk 3y ago
      After I leave the McDonalds "store" with a Big Mac, I can have their food with outside food/drinks. After I leave the Apple Store with an iPhone, I cannot use my phone with outside apps.
  - Turing_Machine 3y ago
    If you tried to bring in your own burger condiments, I don't think it's likely that McDonalds management would agree to put them on for you.
    - gkbrk 3y ago
      But people are not asking Apple to install their apps for them on their own iPhone. People are only asking Apple to stop preventing them from installing apps. After you pay for the iPhone, it is yours, after you leave the physical Apple Store you are not in their store any more. If McDonalds sent someone to my house with me after I purchase a Big Mac, and tried to stop me when I wanted to put some of my own condiments in it, I would find this creepy and controlling behavior very weird.
      - Turing_Machine 3y ago
        That still doesn't make Apple a monopoly. Apple is the only place you can buy an iPhone, yes, but you don't have to buy an iPhone. You can buy an Android phone instead (in fact Android has about 2/3 of the market worldwide, which, condiments aside, make the claim that Apple is a "monopoly" pretty dubious).
- supermatt 3y ago
  I can buy a big mac from ubereats, so thats clearly not true.
dkarras 3y ago
So I create a device, it does not even support 3rd party apps (and does not have to). People think the device is amazing. They want to be able to create their own applications on it. They ask for support. I create the SDK for it support it and say "ok, you can if you want to, under my own terms. You need to pay me a fee for the privilege, we both win". And you say "that is illegal! your device is too good! you have to let me develop and sell apps on it for no additional cost to me!" is that really your position? Apple, as a company, can disallow installation of any 3rd party apps on their platform tomorrow, is it not their right? I mean no one is not owed anything by Apple. iOS does not have to legally support 3rd party apps does it? They are being punished for making it too easy. If they sold overpriced dev kits and demanded 5 figure upfront dev license costs and worked only with select partners for their apps, no one would bat an eye. They make the barrier to entry too low and suddenly everyone is entitled.
- supermatt 3y ago
  > under my own terms And there be the dragons. Thats why antitrust laws exists. Not everything written in a contract is contractual. Given the extensive protections that apple is afforded by law to prevent circumvention of their platform, there must also be some take. He who lives by the sword...
- kilburn 3y ago
  > is that really your position? My position is that if you open development to 3rd parties they have to be able to develop for your platform for free. You can charge for the services you provide to the developers (fees if they use your payments platform, your distribution platform, etc), but you should not be able to force them to use such services. The win-win is that by opening your device to 3rd parties it is made more useful for your users and hence more desirable. Iphones wouldn't be so popular if you couldn't access tiktok, instagram and what not with them after all...
- fennecfoxy 3y ago
  >Apple, as a company, can disallow installation of any 3rd party apps on their platform tomorrow No, they can't. False advertising, etc. Installing apps is one of the expected/marketed features of an iPhone at purchase time. Apple could be sued into the ground for doing something like that. It's like saying that an auto manufacturer can advertise their car going 0-60 in 3 seconds, so you buy it, then afterwards they release an OTA update that drops the cars performance to 0-60 in 5 seconds. It's not allowed at all, and if a company does it they owe the consumer. But because you want to give Apple special treatment, I suppose the logic follows that you would think that this case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor.... was unjust to Microsoft, since it's their platform, they can do whatever the fuck they want, right?
KerrAvon 3y ago
Words are just words, though. I have a monopoly on what ice cream I get to put in my freezer, so what? The legislation really isn't clear enough about this -- if it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion -- and to the extent it was clear in 1930, it's been muddied ever since Reagan. And sometimes things have nuance! Not everything is black and white.

lolinder 3y ago

The current situation is that legislation in the EU disagrees with that claim, but a court ruling in the US agrees that defining the market as "iOS app distribution" is too narrow [0]. Until something changes, which definition of the market is accurate depends on your jurisdiction. [0] https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca9/21-16506/21-16506-2023-04-24.html https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca9/21...

Turing_Machine 3y ago

McDonalds is the only company that can distribute Big Macs. You can't buy a Big Mac anywhere but McDonalds. That doesn't make McDonalds a "monopoly".

gkbrk 3y ago
But that's not quite the same situation with Apple. It's more like if your Big Mac didn't support being eaten with non-McDonalds-approved Ketchup or Mayo.
- paulmd 3y ago
  Do restaurants not have the “no outside food/drink allowed” stickers on the doors where you live?
  - gkbrk 3y ago
    After I leave the McDonalds "store" with a Big Mac, I can have their food with outside food/drinks. After I leave the Apple Store with an iPhone, I cannot use my phone with outside apps.
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  If you tried to bring in your own burger condiments, I don't think it's likely that McDonalds management would agree to put them on for you.
  - gkbrk 3y ago
    But people are not asking Apple to install their apps for them on their own iPhone. People are only asking Apple to stop preventing them from installing apps. After you pay for the iPhone, it is yours, after you leave the physical Apple Store you are not in their store any more. If McDonalds sent someone to my house with me after I purchase a Big Mac, and tried to stop me when I wanted to put some of my own condiments in it, I would find this creepy and controlling behavior very weird.
    - Turing_Machine 3y ago
      That still doesn't make Apple a monopoly. Apple is the only place you can buy an iPhone, yes, but you don't have to buy an iPhone. You can buy an Android phone instead (in fact Android has about 2/3 of the market worldwide, which, condiments aside, make the claim that Apple is a "monopoly" pretty dubious).
supermatt 3y ago
I can buy a big mac from ubereats, so thats clearly not true.

dkarras 3y ago

So I create a device, it does not even support 3rd party apps (and does not have to). People think the device is amazing. They want to be able to create their own applications on it. They ask for support. I create the SDK for it support it and say "ok, you can if you want to, under my own terms. You need to pay me a fee for the privilege, we both win". And you say "that is illegal! your device is too good! you have to let me develop and sell apps on it for no additional cost to me!" is that really your position? Apple, as a company, can disallow installation of any 3rd party apps on their platform tomorrow, is it not their right? I mean no one is not owed anything by Apple. iOS does not have to legally support 3rd party apps does it? They are being punished for making it too easy. If they sold overpriced dev kits and demanded 5 figure upfront dev license costs and worked only with select partners for their apps, no one would bat an eye. They make the barrier to entry too low and suddenly everyone is entitled.

supermatt 3y ago
> under my own terms And there be the dragons. Thats why antitrust laws exists. Not everything written in a contract is contractual. Given the extensive protections that apple is afforded by law to prevent circumvention of their platform, there must also be some take. He who lives by the sword...
kilburn 3y ago
> is that really your position? My position is that if you open development to 3rd parties they have to be able to develop for your platform for free. You can charge for the services you provide to the developers (fees if they use your payments platform, your distribution platform, etc), but you should not be able to force them to use such services. The win-win is that by opening your device to 3rd parties it is made more useful for your users and hence more desirable. Iphones wouldn't be so popular if you couldn't access tiktok, instagram and what not with them after all...
fennecfoxy 3y ago
>Apple, as a company, can disallow installation of any 3rd party apps on their platform tomorrow No, they can't. False advertising, etc. Installing apps is one of the expected/marketed features of an iPhone at purchase time. Apple could be sued into the ground for doing something like that. It's like saying that an auto manufacturer can advertise their car going 0-60 in 3 seconds, so you buy it, then afterwards they release an OTA update that drops the cars performance to 0-60 in 5 seconds. It's not allowed at all, and if a company does it they owe the consumer. But because you want to give Apple special treatment, I suppose the logic follows that you would think that this case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor.... was unjust to Microsoft, since it's their platform, they can do whatever the fuck they want, right?

KerrAvon 3y ago

Words are just words, though. I have a monopoly on what ice cream I get to put in my freezer, so what? The legislation really isn't clear enough about this -- if it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion -- and to the extent it was clear in 1930, it's been muddied ever since Reagan. And sometimes things have nuance! Not everything is black and white.