4 ms·

I've lived in NL for a while, few years, changed few companies, it's a place where processes are more important than actual code quality, where people stay in t

I've lived in NL for a while, few years, changed few companies, it's a place where processes are more important than actual code quality, where people stay in the same job for 10-15 years and everything below that is seen as a bad thing, people is hired for the culture primarily, having awareness of software principles is really worthless. I ran away as the last company I interviewed with, after solving a coding puzzle in 30 seconds, finishing in 15 mins something which had to take 45 mins, asked "Are you available to come at the office on Friday for company parties?". So I can only have nightmares about software practices in NL companies I've seen files with 13k lines of if/else/switch, how do you test that shit .-.

konschubert 3y ago
I thought that the dutch would be more ... modern?
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  I don't know, I've worked in Germany, but only for US companies, so I can't speak for proper German company software development culture :(
- Tarq0n 3y ago
  It's a pretty large gap between enterprise organizations that have lost the capability to do anything but buy mostly terrible software in the open market and organizations that maintain some amount of ability to make things. If you're at one of the former, expect to be locked into a digital landscape that's decades out of date.
- DJHenk 3y ago
  > I thought that the dutch would be more ... modern? As a Dutchman: no, we are not when it comes to businesses software. Dutch companies are very conservative and always choose the safe option. They are modern in that they updated the slogan 'Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM' to the current century. It is the main reason that I have only worked at companies with a healthy mix of different nationalities for the last ten years. Doing software in a Dutch monoculture is suffocating.
YorickPeterse 3y ago
This seems like a very one-sided opinion/experience. While I've certainly had my own share of odd experiences and heard similarly odd stories, this doesn't really strike me as specific to The Netherlands as a whole.
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  Of course I can only express one sided experiences, did you think you were reading a post from Him? :D To me is specific to there because while I’ve had weird experiences somewhere else, it was not as consistent, so in my own experience (guess I need to specify the obvious) it's more likely to end up in weird codebases there than somewhere else, again, in my experience Was always wondering why people say on their blog that opinions are their own
mrtksn 3y ago
Good thing that soon all the software would be written by AI then. Slightly kidding, but only slightly because I kind of agree with the idea that people shouldn't be writing software but designing systems. All this big talks about unit testing, management styles etc. and at the end we have this software all around with huge security holes and terrible bugs. Maybe the people partying on Fridays right after pushing untested code to production are having it right. Their machines work.
- ericmay 3y ago
  Why shouldn’t the AI also design the systems? ;-)
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    Haha right, but maybe you still want to have some control over it - just to be sure that it fits you first. Calibration and quality control if you will. At some level High enough the thing becomes art because you have the have empathy which is something that machines can only pretend since they are operating differently than humans. A bit like us designing cat toys: Although we can design some successful ones by observing cats and trying out different things, more often than not we design it to our liking and the cat will enjoy the package more than the toy itself.
    - jorticka 3y ago
      You couldn't sell a package as a cat toy.
nroets 3y ago
This is a company with over 40,000 employees and a market cap of over $100b. Surely they would have opened offices in different countries if Dutch culture was holding them back. They are just a domestic flight away from Eastern Europe. And just a train ride away from London.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >This is a company with over 40,000 employees and a market cap of over $100b. Just because they won a golden ticket selling products based on US research given to them, in a market impossible to enter by new players, is no proof their culture is superior to other companies. It could be they were at the right palce right time. Pretty sure Nokia also though their corporate culture was superior when the iPhone dropped due to their huge market cap in the phone business. >Surely they would have opened offices in different countries if Dutch culture was holding them back. They do have offices is many other countries other than NL.
midasz 3y ago
I'm going to defend this method of hiring a little bit. To me, having at least a bachelor of IT already proves you have software engineering skills. The coding tests are just a quick check if you haven't lied or anything. The first month is trial basis anyway (both ways) so if the candidate is not on-par technically it's a quick goodbye. I don't care about parties either but if I'm going to have to work with you I need to know you fit in a little, creating software is collaborative. In real life, in real companies you are not solving leetcode problems all the time - so why hire based on that? Person A is super intelligent but abrasive and person B is half as smart but super easy to work with. 100% of the time I pick person B. > having awareness of software principles is really worthless This is nonsense, you are already expected to know this > I've seen files with 13k lines of if/else/switch, how do you test that shit .-. I've seen those too, but don't pretend that's unique to a specific country. There are shitty software developers everywhere.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  Yeah this is typical junior code ninja opinion. Folks with 20+ years under our belts know damn too well how humane aspect is more important than literally anything in long term. My wife for example is a doctor. They have cabinets of 4 GP, 1 of them as we found out is a proper sociopath with very unstable personality when things are not perfect. He is driving whole cabinet which employs 10 people to the ground very effectively, wife is running away and hoping it will collapse only after she got out legally. If it wasn't for psycho moves of this guy that cabinet would thrive. While he is consistently being reported as a great doctor by his patients. She is moving into another cabinet where head of it understood it extremely well, and is super picky about people from personality perspective. People here on HN love stories about experts saving the world, they as experts see themselves in that position. In real life, thats hardly ever the case, most long term problems come from people and not how you solve technical challenges. Once you covered this by far the most important aspect, then of course professional excellence is next step. Never make the mistake of changing the order of those 2, ever.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Completely agree. And as someone who didn't fit culturally as often as I did fit, this is a two way street (ignoring the very extreme ends of the spectrum). Having a brilliant misfit at the wrong position can tank a team.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
smooc 3y ago
I'm a hiring manager in the Netherlands. I would be happy that you ran away, because you would not have passed the bar. The hiring process I like to have in place is: 1. HR Interview: see if there is a fit with the company 2. Skill check. Do you have the problem solving, hard skills and communication skills needed for the job. 3. Team fit. Do you like to drink a beer (or non alcoholic) with us and we with you. Can you hold a conversation about something else than work. 6 people are involved. 2 per step. Everyone has a veto. I as a manager do not have special power. I've had people fail most of the time on #3. E.g. a guy that did not talk the woman of the team. She veto-ed. We were really looking for his skills, but he was a jerk. I don't think you would have passed #3 either. You can have l33t coding skills, but if you cannot make it work in a team it is basically useless for anything of size.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  > Do you like to drink a beer (or non alcoholic) with us and we with you. Why is that relevant for work? Are you looking for labor, or for a date/drinking buddy? Social and communication skills are important but I can be professionally communicative for work ralted topics, and still not want to have a beer with you after work, because it's my free time and I have other interests than you and other things to do. Unless the company choses to have the beers/drinks during working time in which case by all means, if you pay me to drink on the clock I won't say NO.
  - lnxg33k1 3y ago
    > because it's my free time This is exactly my frustration
  - tiimbz 3y ago
    It might be relevant, because labor isn't just about working in a silo. A significant part of work might be done in a team setting, where communication, feedback loops, constant interaction, collaboration, code reviews, team spirit, and more are important. I'm not suggesting should offer your free time to help cultivate this, but in my experience it does help with building a good work relationship with your colleagues - either outside of work or even at lunch - which then improves the outcome of the labor.

konschubert 3y ago

I thought that the dutch would be more ... modern?

lnxg33k1 3y ago
I don't know, I've worked in Germany, but only for US companies, so I can't speak for proper German company software development culture :(
Tarq0n 3y ago
It's a pretty large gap between enterprise organizations that have lost the capability to do anything but buy mostly terrible software in the open market and organizations that maintain some amount of ability to make things. If you're at one of the former, expect to be locked into a digital landscape that's decades out of date.
DJHenk 3y ago
> I thought that the dutch would be more ... modern? As a Dutchman: no, we are not when it comes to businesses software. Dutch companies are very conservative and always choose the safe option. They are modern in that they updated the slogan 'Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM' to the current century. It is the main reason that I have only worked at companies with a healthy mix of different nationalities for the last ten years. Doing software in a Dutch monoculture is suffocating.

YorickPeterse 3y ago

This seems like a very one-sided opinion/experience. While I've certainly had my own share of odd experiences and heard similarly odd stories, this doesn't really strike me as specific to The Netherlands as a whole.

lnxg33k1 3y ago
Of course I can only express one sided experiences, did you think you were reading a post from Him? :D To me is specific to there because while I’ve had weird experiences somewhere else, it was not as consistent, so in my own experience (guess I need to specify the obvious) it's more likely to end up in weird codebases there than somewhere else, again, in my experience Was always wondering why people say on their blog that opinions are their own

mrtksn 3y ago

Good thing that soon all the software would be written by AI then. Slightly kidding, but only slightly because I kind of agree with the idea that people shouldn't be writing software but designing systems. All this big talks about unit testing, management styles etc. and at the end we have this software all around with huge security holes and terrible bugs. Maybe the people partying on Fridays right after pushing untested code to production are having it right. Their machines work.

ericmay 3y ago
Why shouldn’t the AI also design the systems? ;-)
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Haha right, but maybe you still want to have some control over it - just to be sure that it fits you first. Calibration and quality control if you will. At some level High enough the thing becomes art because you have the have empathy which is something that machines can only pretend since they are operating differently than humans. A bit like us designing cat toys: Although we can design some successful ones by observing cats and trying out different things, more often than not we design it to our liking and the cat will enjoy the package more than the toy itself.
  - jorticka 3y ago
    You couldn't sell a package as a cat toy.

nroets 3y ago

This is a company with over 40,000 employees and a market cap of over $100b. Surely they would have opened offices in different countries if Dutch culture was holding them back. They are just a domestic flight away from Eastern Europe. And just a train ride away from London.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>This is a company with over 40,000 employees and a market cap of over $100b. Just because they won a golden ticket selling products based on US research given to them, in a market impossible to enter by new players, is no proof their culture is superior to other companies. It could be they were at the right palce right time. Pretty sure Nokia also though their corporate culture was superior when the iPhone dropped due to their huge market cap in the phone business. >Surely they would have opened offices in different countries if Dutch culture was holding them back. They do have offices is many other countries other than NL.

midasz 3y ago

I'm going to defend this method of hiring a little bit. To me, having at least a bachelor of IT already proves you have software engineering skills. The coding tests are just a quick check if you haven't lied or anything. The first month is trial basis anyway (both ways) so if the candidate is not on-par technically it's a quick goodbye. I don't care about parties either but if I'm going to have to work with you I need to know you fit in a little, creating software is collaborative. In real life, in real companies you are not solving leetcode problems all the time - so why hire based on that? Person A is super intelligent but abrasive and person B is half as smart but super easy to work with. 100% of the time I pick person B. > having awareness of software principles is really worthless This is nonsense, you are already expected to know this > I've seen files with 13k lines of if/else/switch, how do you test that shit .-. I've seen those too, but don't pretend that's unique to a specific country. There are shitty software developers everywhere.

saiya-jin 3y ago
Yeah this is typical junior code ninja opinion. Folks with 20+ years under our belts know damn too well how humane aspect is more important than literally anything in long term. My wife for example is a doctor. They have cabinets of 4 GP, 1 of them as we found out is a proper sociopath with very unstable personality when things are not perfect. He is driving whole cabinet which employs 10 people to the ground very effectively, wife is running away and hoping it will collapse only after she got out legally. If it wasn't for psycho moves of this guy that cabinet would thrive. While he is consistently being reported as a great doctor by his patients. She is moving into another cabinet where head of it understood it extremely well, and is super picky about people from personality perspective. People here on HN love stories about experts saving the world, they as experts see themselves in that position. In real life, thats hardly ever the case, most long term problems come from people and not how you solve technical challenges. Once you covered this by far the most important aspect, then of course professional excellence is next step. Never make the mistake of changing the order of those 2, ever.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Completely agree. And as someone who didn't fit culturally as often as I did fit, this is a two way street (ignoring the very extreme ends of the spectrum). Having a brilliant misfit at the wrong position can tank a team.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

smooc 3y ago

I'm a hiring manager in the Netherlands. I would be happy that you ran away, because you would not have passed the bar. The hiring process I like to have in place is: 1. HR Interview: see if there is a fit with the company 2. Skill check. Do you have the problem solving, hard skills and communication skills needed for the job. 3. Team fit. Do you like to drink a beer (or non alcoholic) with us and we with you. Can you hold a conversation about something else than work. 6 people are involved. 2 per step. Everyone has a veto. I as a manager do not have special power. I've had people fail most of the time on #3. E.g. a guy that did not talk the woman of the team. She veto-ed. We were really looking for his skills, but he was a jerk. I don't think you would have passed #3 either. You can have l33t coding skills, but if you cannot make it work in a team it is basically useless for anything of size.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
> Do you like to drink a beer (or non alcoholic) with us and we with you. Why is that relevant for work? Are you looking for labor, or for a date/drinking buddy? Social and communication skills are important but I can be professionally communicative for work ralted topics, and still not want to have a beer with you after work, because it's my free time and I have other interests than you and other things to do. Unless the company choses to have the beers/drinks during working time in which case by all means, if you pay me to drink on the clock I won't say NO.
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  > because it's my free time This is exactly my frustration
- tiimbz 3y ago
  It might be relevant, because labor isn't just about working in a silo. A significant part of work might be done in a team setting, where communication, feedback loops, constant interaction, collaboration, code reviews, team spirit, and more are important. I'm not suggesting should offer your free time to help cultivate this, but in my experience it does help with building a good work relationship with your colleagues - either outside of work or even at lunch - which then improves the outcome of the labor.