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What problems? "we need no permission" - duh, it's an FOSS project that nobody has to use. Distro maintainers have chosen to use it because it has a significa

by Alupis 3y ago

What problems? "we need no permission" - duh, it's an FOSS project that nobody has to use. Distro maintainers have chosen to use it because it has a significant number of advantages over SysV init scripts and the rest. Don't like systemd? Use another init! Use another distro! Use Arch or any one of the distros that makes it very easy to choose your own components. Or... roll your own distro! People just like to continue beating a dead horse for no reason. This is why "The Year of the Linux Desktop Is Just a Year Away!". People belly ache about anything modern... and stunt development for their niche requirements.

bayindirh 3y ago
As I said, you need to dig my comment history for that, because I have no time to rewrite everything I said over and over again. Distribution politics is something I’m familiar with enough, and I’m well versed enough in UNIX philosophy and how bending it creates problems (which systemd has gone through, and painfully learnt it again). Another reason that I’m not writing a wall of text is I like horses and not prefer beating them regardless of they are alive or not. However, if it comes to that, I can roll my own distribution, which I did in a professional capacity before. Paralel Sys-V (with dependencies), Mudur and upstart was not slower than systemd, and we were already able to do everything systemd was doing. That’s still true. I’m using systemd on a thousand machines every day, and yes, it has improved, but it’s neither perfect, nor indispensable, yet developers prefer to lock themselves into it. Lastly, free software moves with respect to each other, not by “moving fast and breaking things because feeling like it”. Systemd became better because they had to accept that they can’t bend everything the way they want. Systemd doesn’t live in a vacuum and doesn’t have the luxury and authority to break and build things as they wish and expect everyone adapt to them and worship them as demigods.
- Alupis 3y ago
  Your sentiment is ridiculous. If Upstart, Mudur or name any of the other many init's were better or became better, distro maintainers would switch. They are some of the most pragmatic people. Politics did not insert systemd into all of your widely-used distros... merit did. Even if that merit isn't what you wanted for your niche requirements. systemd came late to the next-gen init debate and ate everyone else's lunch. Now, the bar is high to replace init's again - meaning the next init system will need to be a leap forward instead of marginal/niche improvements. > I’m using systemd on a thousand machines every day You are a niche user and have niche requirements. Understand that...
  - b112 3y ago
    Absurd. Systemd was adopted by redhat because it is their baby. And because redhat controls gnome, gnome created a hard depend upon systemd. Which is why the debian vote went te way it did. This is history. Systemd was not adopted due to merit.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      > Systemd was adopted by redhat because it is their baby You mean after shipping Upstart in RHEL 6 and immediately regretting it? > And because redhat controls gnome, gnome created a hard depend upon systemd. This is some revisionist history right there. Red Hat contributes money to GNOME, along with a lot of other organizations. GNOME is not even close to being the only DE either... are you asserting some sort of evil conspiracy to adopt systemd for profit or something? That is absurd...
      - simoncion 3y ago
        > ...are you asserting some sort of evil conspiracy to adopt systemd for profit or something? Why does it have to be an evil conspiracy? Corporations pay folks to work on these things. Based on my personal experience: Corporations have things like OKRs and performance reviews and the like. Managers in such companies (at all levels) tend to have a hard time understanding what their people work on and whether or not it was actually important and/or useful. This leads to managers getting seduced by things that are easy to fit stories to... Bold Mission Statements and Grand Visions. One great story is how you're "Revolutionizing Computing and Paving The Way To The Future With Cutting-Edge Technology". Another great story is how you're "Accelerating the Desktop Through Tighter Integration With Cutting Edge Components". Absent highly-clued-in managers who have enough slack time to figure out how useful the things you've been doing are, great stories get you more money, accolades and promotions than folks who don't have great stories. Simple as. No conspiracy needed. It's just a bunch of folks following "incentive gradients" that don't result in optimal outcomes for the unpaid folks who work on and/or use the product.
    - IntelMiner 3y ago
      Debian did something because Red Hat did it? That's some tinfoil hat Olympics
NekkoDroid 3y ago
Arch doesn't officially support anything other than systemd as init system
- Alupis 3y ago
  > https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/init https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/init You mean they don't officially provide support for them, even though you can choose to use a wide variety of init's. Regardless, there are other distros that don't use systemd by default. Choose one of those if you have it in your head systemd is causing you some sort of pain (it isn't...).
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    You can but you'll have to configure the startup of every package yourself.
wkat4242 3y ago
Arch is actually very hard to use without systemd. It's the one thing that's hard-pinned there. For example with the packages. But there's other options yes like Alpine and Devuan. And the BSDs. If you don't want systemd there's a lot of options.
Repulsion9513 3y ago
- Mysterious PID1 crash related to timedatectl, resolved by replacing /etc/localtime with a regular file instead of symlink (to a file on same FS). How do you strace PID1 to get some idea what's going on? You don't. Good thing timezone management needs to be part of init! - Mysterious issue in resolvectl, some sort of race condition, 2-year old bug report https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/22775 https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/22775 - at least you actually don't have to use this one. And those are just the two that I've had to spend hours on in the past few years. Not using systemd is barely a choice, even if you don't use systemd itself you nearly have to use things which are designed in exactly the same bad ways (polkit, systemd-udevd), there are several (negative) changes which even systemd-resistant distros have adopted for conformity which were first driven by systemd, lots of software has completely removed their provided init-scripts and replaced them with systemd unit files only so you have to write your own or go dig it up from the git history... Oh and it's extremely brittle and one little piece breaking means you can't boot at all, not even in single user, since everything is jammed into PID1... so good luck even examining what's going on. I could go on but of course you've already seen and chosen to ignore any argument I could make, because this dead horse has indeed been beaten, by the people who constantly ask "what's wrong with it" when many, many answers are a simple Google away.

by Alupis 3y ago

bayindirh 3y ago

As I said, you need to dig my comment history for that, because I have no time to rewrite everything I said over and over again. Distribution politics is something I’m familiar with enough, and I’m well versed enough in UNIX philosophy and how bending it creates problems (which systemd has gone through, and painfully learnt it again). Another reason that I’m not writing a wall of text is I like horses and not prefer beating them regardless of they are alive or not. However, if it comes to that, I can roll my own distribution, which I did in a professional capacity before. Paralel Sys-V (with dependencies), Mudur and upstart was not slower than systemd, and we were already able to do everything systemd was doing. That’s still true. I’m using systemd on a thousand machines every day, and yes, it has improved, but it’s neither perfect, nor indispensable, yet developers prefer to lock themselves into it. Lastly, free software moves with respect to each other, not by “moving fast and breaking things because feeling like it”. Systemd became better because they had to accept that they can’t bend everything the way they want. Systemd doesn’t live in a vacuum and doesn’t have the luxury and authority to break and build things as they wish and expect everyone adapt to them and worship them as demigods.

Alupis 3y ago
Your sentiment is ridiculous. If Upstart, Mudur or name any of the other many init's were better or became better, distro maintainers would switch. They are some of the most pragmatic people. Politics did not insert systemd into all of your widely-used distros... merit did. Even if that merit isn't what you wanted for your niche requirements. systemd came late to the next-gen init debate and ate everyone else's lunch. Now, the bar is high to replace init's again - meaning the next init system will need to be a leap forward instead of marginal/niche improvements. > I’m using systemd on a thousand machines every day You are a niche user and have niche requirements. Understand that...
- b112 3y ago
  Absurd. Systemd was adopted by redhat because it is their baby. And because redhat controls gnome, gnome created a hard depend upon systemd. Which is why the debian vote went te way it did. This is history. Systemd was not adopted due to merit.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    > Systemd was adopted by redhat because it is their baby You mean after shipping Upstart in RHEL 6 and immediately regretting it? > And because redhat controls gnome, gnome created a hard depend upon systemd. This is some revisionist history right there. Red Hat contributes money to GNOME, along with a lot of other organizations. GNOME is not even close to being the only DE either... are you asserting some sort of evil conspiracy to adopt systemd for profit or something? That is absurd...
    - simoncion 3y ago
      > ...are you asserting some sort of evil conspiracy to adopt systemd for profit or something? Why does it have to be an evil conspiracy? Corporations pay folks to work on these things. Based on my personal experience: Corporations have things like OKRs and performance reviews and the like. Managers in such companies (at all levels) tend to have a hard time understanding what their people work on and whether or not it was actually important and/or useful. This leads to managers getting seduced by things that are easy to fit stories to... Bold Mission Statements and Grand Visions. One great story is how you're "Revolutionizing Computing and Paving The Way To The Future With Cutting-Edge Technology". Another great story is how you're "Accelerating the Desktop Through Tighter Integration With Cutting Edge Components". Absent highly-clued-in managers who have enough slack time to figure out how useful the things you've been doing are, great stories get you more money, accolades and promotions than folks who don't have great stories. Simple as. No conspiracy needed. It's just a bunch of folks following "incentive gradients" that don't result in optimal outcomes for the unpaid folks who work on and/or use the product.
  - IntelMiner 3y ago
    Debian did something because Red Hat did it? That's some tinfoil hat Olympics

NekkoDroid 3y ago

Arch doesn't officially support anything other than systemd as init system

Alupis 3y ago
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/init https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/init You mean they don't officially provide support for them, even though you can choose to use a wide variety of init's. Regardless, there are other distros that don't use systemd by default. Choose one of those if you have it in your head systemd is causing you some sort of pain (it isn't...).
- wkat4242 3y ago
  You can but you'll have to configure the startup of every package yourself.

wkat4242 3y ago

Arch is actually very hard to use without systemd. It's the one thing that's hard-pinned there. For example with the packages. But there's other options yes like Alpine and Devuan. And the BSDs. If you don't want systemd there's a lot of options.

Repulsion9513 3y ago

- Mysterious PID1 crash related to timedatectl, resolved by replacing /etc/localtime with a regular file instead of symlink (to a file on same FS). How do you strace PID1 to get some idea what's going on? You don't. Good thing timezone management needs to be part of init! - Mysterious issue in resolvectl, some sort of race condition, 2-year old bug report https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/22775 https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/22775 - at least you actually don't have to use this one. And those are just the two that I've had to spend hours on in the past few years. Not using systemd is barely a choice, even if you don't use systemd itself you nearly have to use things which are designed in exactly the same bad ways (polkit, systemd-udevd), there are several (negative) changes which even systemd-resistant distros have adopted for conformity which were first driven by systemd, lots of software has completely removed their provided init-scripts and replaced them with systemd unit files only so you have to write your own or go dig it up from the git history... Oh and it's extremely brittle and one little piece breaking means you can't boot at all, not even in single user, since everything is jammed into PID1... so good luck even examining what's going on. I could go on but of course you've already seen and chosen to ignore any argument I could make, because this dead horse has indeed been beaten, by the people who constantly ask "what's wrong with it" when many, many answers are a simple Google away.