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> Today, much of poker theory is driven by analyzers that are supposed to implement a practice called "GTO" (game theory optimal). There have been a lot of inte

by alexb_ 3y ago

> Today, much of poker theory is driven by analyzers that are supposed to implement a practice called "GTO" (game theory optimal). There have been a lot of interesting findings in the last ~5 years that have come from these that I would be surprised to see in a course like this. Where can one learn about these? Resources on fast moving areas like this is super hard to find if you're not "in the know" already.

JohnMakin 3y ago
IME mostly in poker forums like twoplustwo.com or reddit or behind training site paywalls, but there are also a lot of bad/minsinformed opinions out there
jvans 3y ago
A lot of it happens in closed discussions with pros who are running various simulations. Some of it is posted on training sites but a lot is not. The game these days is all about reverse engineering strategy principles from GTO simulation output. E.g. what general principle causes the solver output to say raise 30% in this spot vs raise 80%? If you come up with a coherent story, you can apply that thought process to new situations. It's a totally different game than it was a decade ago Here is one of the solvers if you are interested: https://piosolver.myshopify.com/ https://piosolver.myshopify.com/ Fwiw there is a significant amount of skill involved in choosing how to run simulations. I think they have some intro videos to help you
- JohnMakin 3y ago
  > Fwiw there is a significant amount of skill involved in choosing how to run simulations and sometimes a pretty significant amount of memory - these applications use massive amounts of it
qup 3y ago
Just my advice, I would largely ignore the situation, and just take the overall advice that trickles down. For instance, one major advancement of the solvers was figuring out which part of your range to bluff with. There are advantages and disadvantages based on card removal--this is common knowledge now, but nobody had come up with it 15 years ago when I was a pro. Anyway, it's still not best to play like a robot in live low stakes games, which are probably what you're going to be playing. Exploit the shit out of your opponents. GTO has some good concepts that are easy to implement, but I'd work on studying your opponents and the mistakes they are making, and decide how to capitalize on those mistakes. If you are going to multi-table online, ignore everything I just said and become best friends with some solver software. Good luck.
- waprin 3y ago
  The problem with this advice is that solvers are one of the best ways to understand how to "exploit the shit out of your opponents". Piosolver has several features that lets you emulate how your opponent plays, such as "node locking", that "lock" the game tree node to the strategy you suspect your opponent plays, and shows you how to maximally exploit it. Otherwise, what is your exploitation based on? Certainly some people have great instincts for the game, but it's just untrue that solvers can't help you exploit weaker players. For example, if you're on a given board and a given river and an opponent makes a big bet, if your opponent bluffs too much you should call, if they don't bluff enough you should fold. But the solver teaches you how often they should be bluffing and thus what "too much" or "not enough" even means. This is why I prefer the term "theory-based" to GTO, since the point of studying GTO is not to play GTO but to develop a better understanding of the underlying mechanics of the game.
  - qup 3y ago
    Before solvers people still implemented strategies, so I'm not sure what you mean when you ask what my exploitation is based on. I think GTO is a great way to think about the game. I don't think studying solvers is important to understand the game well, or GTO. When solvers provide an insight, it generally trickles out to the poker community and we all hear about it. It's much easier to digest traditional educational content than to futz around with a solver, and a much better use of time for a new player.
    - waprin 3y ago
      There’s not much else to say other than you’re wrong. People tried their best before solvers, then solvers came along and people who didn’t keep up with them lost to people who did. I think it’s possible for people to win without studying them because of a combination of soft games and natural instincts, but the vast majority of good players these days do solver work. If your brand new, having an experienced player distill some of those concepts is helpful, but if you want to be good you might as well start doing the things good players do sooner rather than later.

by alexb_ 3y ago

JohnMakin 3y ago

IME mostly in poker forums like twoplustwo.com or reddit or behind training site paywalls, but there are also a lot of bad/minsinformed opinions out there

jvans 3y ago

A lot of it happens in closed discussions with pros who are running various simulations. Some of it is posted on training sites but a lot is not. The game these days is all about reverse engineering strategy principles from GTO simulation output. E.g. what general principle causes the solver output to say raise 30% in this spot vs raise 80%? If you come up with a coherent story, you can apply that thought process to new situations. It's a totally different game than it was a decade ago Here is one of the solvers if you are interested: https://piosolver.myshopify.com/ https://piosolver.myshopify.com/ Fwiw there is a significant amount of skill involved in choosing how to run simulations. I think they have some intro videos to help you

JohnMakin 3y ago
> Fwiw there is a significant amount of skill involved in choosing how to run simulations and sometimes a pretty significant amount of memory - these applications use massive amounts of it

qup 3y ago

Just my advice, I would largely ignore the situation, and just take the overall advice that trickles down. For instance, one major advancement of the solvers was figuring out which part of your range to bluff with. There are advantages and disadvantages based on card removal--this is common knowledge now, but nobody had come up with it 15 years ago when I was a pro. Anyway, it's still not best to play like a robot in live low stakes games, which are probably what you're going to be playing. Exploit the shit out of your opponents. GTO has some good concepts that are easy to implement, but I'd work on studying your opponents and the mistakes they are making, and decide how to capitalize on those mistakes. If you are going to multi-table online, ignore everything I just said and become best friends with some solver software. Good luck.

waprin 3y ago
The problem with this advice is that solvers are one of the best ways to understand how to "exploit the shit out of your opponents". Piosolver has several features that lets you emulate how your opponent plays, such as "node locking", that "lock" the game tree node to the strategy you suspect your opponent plays, and shows you how to maximally exploit it. Otherwise, what is your exploitation based on? Certainly some people have great instincts for the game, but it's just untrue that solvers can't help you exploit weaker players. For example, if you're on a given board and a given river and an opponent makes a big bet, if your opponent bluffs too much you should call, if they don't bluff enough you should fold. But the solver teaches you how often they should be bluffing and thus what "too much" or "not enough" even means. This is why I prefer the term "theory-based" to GTO, since the point of studying GTO is not to play GTO but to develop a better understanding of the underlying mechanics of the game.
- qup 3y ago
  Before solvers people still implemented strategies, so I'm not sure what you mean when you ask what my exploitation is based on. I think GTO is a great way to think about the game. I don't think studying solvers is important to understand the game well, or GTO. When solvers provide an insight, it generally trickles out to the poker community and we all hear about it. It's much easier to digest traditional educational content than to futz around with a solver, and a much better use of time for a new player.
  - waprin 3y ago
    There’s not much else to say other than you’re wrong. People tried their best before solvers, then solvers came along and people who didn’t keep up with them lost to people who did. I think it’s possible for people to win without studying them because of a combination of soft games and natural instincts, but the vast majority of good players these days do solver work. If your brand new, having an experienced player distill some of those concepts is helpful, but if you want to be good you might as well start doing the things good players do sooner rather than later.