5 ms·

I just want to point out that a terrorist that drives a plane into a skyscraper is a dead terrorist too. You need one terrorist to extract the material and put

by giva 3y ago

I just want to point out that a terrorist that drives a plane into a skyscraper is a dead terrorist too. You need one terrorist to extract the material and put some quantities in a somewhat shielded container before being incapacitated, and then others to spread it on the subway.

areoform 3y ago
Radiation isn't magic. Several feet/meters of water are used as shielding for the fuel for a good reason. If you put an activated fuel rod inside of a lead lunch box, you will still die. You will now die from a lethal dose of bremsstrahlung. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung If you interact with this material as an amateur without processes, robotics and safety, you will die. Period. You will also suffer from intense nausea and be unable to move before you die. Sharks with lasers are more realistic than this concern. The more plausible scenario is a "dirty bomb" that spreads depleted uranium particles everywhere and gives people cancer long-term. But there's an element of impracticality to this and there's a reason why it hasn't happened yet.
- ViewTrick1002 3y ago
  Even tiny amounts of radioactive waste are dangerous over time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accide...
  - roenxi 3y ago
    We have on-the-record cases of potatoes that have caused a similar number of deaths and injuries [0]. These incidents, while uncomfortable, are just not that concerning. You can kill yourself with damn near anything if you mishandle it badly enough. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine#Recorded_human_poisonings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine#Recorded_human_poison...
- lazide 3y ago
  The issue they’re pointing out is that no one seriously considered terrorists flying airplanes into skyscrapers either, for similar reasons. Until they did it. After all, it’s very impractical getting a bunch of random terrorists training in flying well enough to do this without being caught. Let alone co-ordinating everything, getting through multiple layers of airport security, etc. And everyone ‘successful’ is going to die too. Who would do that? Historically, terrorists would just hijack a plane for attention and/or money and then let everyone go except for those stupid enough to fight them. Which is why the reaction onboard to the terrorists taking the planes was so muted, until a passenger on one of the planes heard the news of the first impact, and they realized they were in a very different situation than a hijacking for money. Not considering dirty bomb type issues a threat would likely be a mistake. Having a bunch of disposable idiots throw hot fuel rods into a water tanker truck, then driving to manhattan, seeding the water with cobalt-59, and letting the mess ‘sort itself out’ (or blowing the the truck up) certainly wouldn’t be hard compared to 9/11 in these scenarios, or likely kill more than a handful of terrorists. Depending on how well secured the fuel was anyway. It would create an absolutely terrific mess though. The only hard part here would be getting the hot fuel (and the idiots), everything else would be ‘COTS’. Which, like 9/11, would not be seen as ‘expensive’. This isn’t sharks with lasers territory.
  - pas 3y ago
    SMRs don't mean they would be scattered around carelessly. They still need the whole steam boiler turbine toybox. And with security requirements they will most likely be put on a site like current NPPs.
    - lazide 3y ago
      A big selling point in the SMR space is they can be placed almost anywhere. It’s literally on the ‘brochure’.
      - pas 3y ago
        yes, and it might make sense, and we will see ... but. the real economics low-hanging fruit is to build those regular NPPs in increments, basically cheaper AND faster (which also means even cheaper). get real economies of scale, apply all of the last century's industrialization benefits on nuclear energy. (because current cost overruns are insane and mostly because of too-slow AND super-duper-artisanal (which means even slower) plant construction.
hcknwscommenter 3y ago
the words "some" and "somewhat" are doing an impractical degree of heavy lifting. Pre-activation material is just not very radioactive and is thus not a terrorist risk. Post-activation material is basically impossible for a non-nation state actor to store and transport. If you just want to dirty up an area by, e.g., spreading radioactive material on a subway, just buy a lot of smoke detectors or do a midnight raid on a hospital or factory radiation source (not advice!). The point is, these are not going to be practical targets.
LorenPechtel 3y ago
But even if the guy will die to steal it that doesn't mean he will live long enough to accomplish anything. And note that he's trying to tote around a gamma source--that's something that can be detected from some distance away. As soon as said terrorist gets it out from behind whatever shields it normally lives behind the alarms start blaring. I remember reading about one, anti-nuke guy kept showing up at meetings at a nuclear facility. Then one day the alarms go off--traced to the old radium-dial watch he was wearing. Rather silenced him.

by giva 3y ago

areoform 3y ago

Radiation isn't magic. Several feet/meters of water are used as shielding for the fuel for a good reason. If you put an activated fuel rod inside of a lead lunch box, you will still die. You will now die from a lethal dose of bremsstrahlung. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung If you interact with this material as an amateur without processes, robotics and safety, you will die. Period. You will also suffer from intense nausea and be unable to move before you die. Sharks with lasers are more realistic than this concern. The more plausible scenario is a "dirty bomb" that spreads depleted uranium particles everywhere and gives people cancer long-term. But there's an element of impracticality to this and there's a reason why it hasn't happened yet.

ViewTrick1002 3y ago
Even tiny amounts of radioactive waste are dangerous over time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accide...
- roenxi 3y ago
  We have on-the-record cases of potatoes that have caused a similar number of deaths and injuries [0]. These incidents, while uncomfortable, are just not that concerning. You can kill yourself with damn near anything if you mishandle it badly enough. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine#Recorded_human_poisonings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine#Recorded_human_poison...
lazide 3y ago
The issue they’re pointing out is that no one seriously considered terrorists flying airplanes into skyscrapers either, for similar reasons. Until they did it. After all, it’s very impractical getting a bunch of random terrorists training in flying well enough to do this without being caught. Let alone co-ordinating everything, getting through multiple layers of airport security, etc. And everyone ‘successful’ is going to die too. Who would do that? Historically, terrorists would just hijack a plane for attention and/or money and then let everyone go except for those stupid enough to fight them. Which is why the reaction onboard to the terrorists taking the planes was so muted, until a passenger on one of the planes heard the news of the first impact, and they realized they were in a very different situation than a hijacking for money. Not considering dirty bomb type issues a threat would likely be a mistake. Having a bunch of disposable idiots throw hot fuel rods into a water tanker truck, then driving to manhattan, seeding the water with cobalt-59, and letting the mess ‘sort itself out’ (or blowing the the truck up) certainly wouldn’t be hard compared to 9/11 in these scenarios, or likely kill more than a handful of terrorists. Depending on how well secured the fuel was anyway. It would create an absolutely terrific mess though. The only hard part here would be getting the hot fuel (and the idiots), everything else would be ‘COTS’. Which, like 9/11, would not be seen as ‘expensive’. This isn’t sharks with lasers territory.
- pas 3y ago
  SMRs don't mean they would be scattered around carelessly. They still need the whole steam boiler turbine toybox. And with security requirements they will most likely be put on a site like current NPPs.
  - lazide 3y ago
    A big selling point in the SMR space is they can be placed almost anywhere. It’s literally on the ‘brochure’.
    - pas 3y ago
      yes, and it might make sense, and we will see ... but. the real economics low-hanging fruit is to build those regular NPPs in increments, basically cheaper AND faster (which also means even cheaper). get real economies of scale, apply all of the last century's industrialization benefits on nuclear energy. (because current cost overruns are insane and mostly because of too-slow AND super-duper-artisanal (which means even slower) plant construction.

hcknwscommenter 3y ago

the words "some" and "somewhat" are doing an impractical degree of heavy lifting. Pre-activation material is just not very radioactive and is thus not a terrorist risk. Post-activation material is basically impossible for a non-nation state actor to store and transport. If you just want to dirty up an area by, e.g., spreading radioactive material on a subway, just buy a lot of smoke detectors or do a midnight raid on a hospital or factory radiation source (not advice!). The point is, these are not going to be practical targets.

LorenPechtel 3y ago

But even if the guy will die to steal it that doesn't mean he will live long enough to accomplish anything. And note that he's trying to tote around a gamma source--that's something that can be detected from some distance away. As soon as said terrorist gets it out from behind whatever shields it normally lives behind the alarms start blaring. I remember reading about one, anti-nuke guy kept showing up at meetings at a nuclear facility. Then one day the alarms go off--traced to the old radium-dial watch he was wearing. Rather silenced him.