3 ms·

Getting to the material is mechanically difficult. It's also the type of problem that neatly solves itself. A fuel rod toting terrorist is a dead terrorist.

Getting to the material is mechanically difficult. It's also the type of problem that neatly solves itself. A fuel rod toting terrorist is a dead terrorist. > The acceptance criteria in DSRS Section 12.3–12.4 state that accessible portions of the facility that are capable of having radiation levels greater than 1 Gy/h (100 rads/h) should be shielded and clearly marked with a sign stating that potentially lethal radiation fields are possible. DCA Part 2, Tier 2, Revision 3, identifies a number of areas (e.g., resin demineralizers, filters, SRSTs) that may contain quantities of radioactive material resulting in radiation dose rates exceeding 100 rads/h (1 Gy/h). Now what I'm about to say changes with the fuel being used, but from LLNL's report, > Even for fuel that has cooled for 15 years, a lethal dose (LD50) of 450 rem can be received at 1m from the fuel assembly after several minutes. https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/10137382 https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/10137382 Good luck trying to carry that stuff out. They'll be the walking dead in a few minutes. They'll be unable to walk and will be just dead in ~100 minutes. Give or take 10 to 20 minutes depending on how they're holding the item etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome#Dose_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome#Dose_... And no, they can't just "put it in [a] lead [box]" to run away with it, because then they'll die to bremsstrahlung radiation or braking radiation. It'll take longer, but the end result will be the same. If it's fuel that hasn't gone into the reactor yet/hasn't undergone neutron activation, then it's not radioactive enough to be a concern unless consumed. Terrorists are rare and they're usually not that capable. It's easier for them to buy a gun or a lorry and mow down a crowd than it is to plan a fiendishly complicated radiation heist.

giva 3y ago
I just want to point out that a terrorist that drives a plane into a skyscraper is a dead terrorist too. You need one terrorist to extract the material and put some quantities in a somewhat shielded container before being incapacitated, and then others to spread it on the subway.
- areoform 3y ago
  Radiation isn't magic. Several feet/meters of water are used as shielding for the fuel for a good reason. If you put an activated fuel rod inside of a lead lunch box, you will still die. You will now die from a lethal dose of bremsstrahlung. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung If you interact with this material as an amateur without processes, robotics and safety, you will die. Period. You will also suffer from intense nausea and be unable to move before you die. Sharks with lasers are more realistic than this concern. The more plausible scenario is a "dirty bomb" that spreads depleted uranium particles everywhere and gives people cancer long-term. But there's an element of impracticality to this and there's a reason why it hasn't happened yet.
  - ViewTrick1002 3y ago
    Even tiny amounts of radioactive waste are dangerous over time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accide...
    - roenxi 3y ago
      We have on-the-record cases of potatoes that have caused a similar number of deaths and injuries [0]. These incidents, while uncomfortable, are just not that concerning. You can kill yourself with damn near anything if you mishandle it badly enough. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine#Recorded_human_poisonings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine#Recorded_human_poison...
  - lazide 3y ago
    The issue they’re pointing out is that no one seriously considered terrorists flying airplanes into skyscrapers either, for similar reasons. Until they did it. After all, it’s very impractical getting a bunch of random terrorists training in flying well enough to do this without being caught. Let alone co-ordinating everything, getting through multiple layers of airport security, etc. And everyone ‘successful’ is going to die too. Who would do that? Historically, terrorists would just hijack a plane for attention and/or money and then let everyone go except for those stupid enough to fight them. Which is why the reaction onboard to the terrorists taking the planes was so muted, until a passenger on one of the planes heard the news of the first impact, and they realized they were in a very different situation than a hijacking for money. Not considering dirty bomb type issues a threat would likely be a mistake. Having a bunch of disposable idiots throw hot fuel rods into a water tanker truck, then driving to manhattan, seeding the water with cobalt-59, and letting the mess ‘sort itself out’ (or blowing the the truck up) certainly wouldn’t be hard compared to 9/11 in these scenarios, or likely kill more than a handful of terrorists. Depending on how well secured the fuel was anyway. It would create an absolutely terrific mess though. The only hard part here would be getting the hot fuel (and the idiots), everything else would be ‘COTS’. Which, like 9/11, would not be seen as ‘expensive’. This isn’t sharks with lasers territory.
- hcknwscommenter 3y ago
  the words "some" and "somewhat" are doing an impractical degree of heavy lifting. Pre-activation material is just not very radioactive and is thus not a terrorist risk. Post-activation material is basically impossible for a non-nation state actor to store and transport. If you just want to dirty up an area by, e.g., spreading radioactive material on a subway, just buy a lot of smoke detectors or do a midnight raid on a hospital or factory radiation source (not advice!). The point is, these are not going to be practical targets.
- LorenPechtel 3y ago
  But even if the guy will die to steal it that doesn't mean he will live long enough to accomplish anything. And note that he's trying to tote around a gamma source--that's something that can be detected from some distance away. As soon as said terrorist gets it out from behind whatever shields it normally lives behind the alarms start blaring. I remember reading about one, anti-nuke guy kept showing up at meetings at a nuclear facility. Then one day the alarms go off--traced to the old radium-dial watch he was wearing. Rather silenced him.

giva 3y ago

I just want to point out that a terrorist that drives a plane into a skyscraper is a dead terrorist too. You need one terrorist to extract the material and put some quantities in a somewhat shielded container before being incapacitated, and then others to spread it on the subway.

areoform 3y ago
Radiation isn't magic. Several feet/meters of water are used as shielding for the fuel for a good reason. If you put an activated fuel rod inside of a lead lunch box, you will still die. You will now die from a lethal dose of bremsstrahlung. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung If you interact with this material as an amateur without processes, robotics and safety, you will die. Period. You will also suffer from intense nausea and be unable to move before you die. Sharks with lasers are more realistic than this concern. The more plausible scenario is a "dirty bomb" that spreads depleted uranium particles everywhere and gives people cancer long-term. But there's an element of impracticality to this and there's a reason why it hasn't happened yet.
- ViewTrick1002 3y ago
  Even tiny amounts of radioactive waste are dangerous over time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accide...
  - roenxi 3y ago
    We have on-the-record cases of potatoes that have caused a similar number of deaths and injuries [0]. These incidents, while uncomfortable, are just not that concerning. You can kill yourself with damn near anything if you mishandle it badly enough. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine#Recorded_human_poisonings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine#Recorded_human_poison...
- lazide 3y ago
  The issue they’re pointing out is that no one seriously considered terrorists flying airplanes into skyscrapers either, for similar reasons. Until they did it. After all, it’s very impractical getting a bunch of random terrorists training in flying well enough to do this without being caught. Let alone co-ordinating everything, getting through multiple layers of airport security, etc. And everyone ‘successful’ is going to die too. Who would do that? Historically, terrorists would just hijack a plane for attention and/or money and then let everyone go except for those stupid enough to fight them. Which is why the reaction onboard to the terrorists taking the planes was so muted, until a passenger on one of the planes heard the news of the first impact, and they realized they were in a very different situation than a hijacking for money. Not considering dirty bomb type issues a threat would likely be a mistake. Having a bunch of disposable idiots throw hot fuel rods into a water tanker truck, then driving to manhattan, seeding the water with cobalt-59, and letting the mess ‘sort itself out’ (or blowing the the truck up) certainly wouldn’t be hard compared to 9/11 in these scenarios, or likely kill more than a handful of terrorists. Depending on how well secured the fuel was anyway. It would create an absolutely terrific mess though. The only hard part here would be getting the hot fuel (and the idiots), everything else would be ‘COTS’. Which, like 9/11, would not be seen as ‘expensive’. This isn’t sharks with lasers territory.
hcknwscommenter 3y ago
the words "some" and "somewhat" are doing an impractical degree of heavy lifting. Pre-activation material is just not very radioactive and is thus not a terrorist risk. Post-activation material is basically impossible for a non-nation state actor to store and transport. If you just want to dirty up an area by, e.g., spreading radioactive material on a subway, just buy a lot of smoke detectors or do a midnight raid on a hospital or factory radiation source (not advice!). The point is, these are not going to be practical targets.
LorenPechtel 3y ago
But even if the guy will die to steal it that doesn't mean he will live long enough to accomplish anything. And note that he's trying to tote around a gamma source--that's something that can be detected from some distance away. As soon as said terrorist gets it out from behind whatever shields it normally lives behind the alarms start blaring. I remember reading about one, anti-nuke guy kept showing up at meetings at a nuclear facility. Then one day the alarms go off--traced to the old radium-dial watch he was wearing. Rather silenced him.