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> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior What's to discuss? Is there any ambiguity about whether stealing cars is unethical

> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior What's to discuss? Is there any ambiguity about whether stealing cars is unethical? What are you bringing to that conversation that moves us forward?

keiferski 3y ago
I am pointing out that the response to this problem isn’t, “Hey, there is a cultural problem with society finding this acceptable” and is instead “how can we re-engineer things to prevent this?”
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  I don't think society finds stealing cars acceptable. That's why stealing illegal, that's why they're trying to outlaw a device that makes stealing cars easier, and why this article is trying to make it illegal to have easy-to-steal cars. Outliers stealing cars is not a demonstration that some part of society finds that ethetical.
  - slingnow 3y ago
    Society largely finds marijuana use acceptable, and yet it remains a federal crime. When someone cuts me in line at the store, I don't see that as ethical or acceptable, but we don't have laws against it. So your argument that unacceptable == illegal isn't set in stone. We may have laws for things that we don't bother to enforce as a society. It's easy to see the possibility that society just views car theft as a normal occurrence ("insurance will cover it"), or perhaps too burdensome to enforce, and therefore society just accepts some amount of it without blinking an eye.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      > It's easy to see the possibility that society just views car theft as a normal occurrence ("insurance will cover it"), or perhaps too burdensome to enforce Does society believe it's acceptable behavior though? I haven't seen any evidence to support the theory that we do. After all, if we did, we'd be out there stealing cars.
- kredd 3y ago
  I heavily doubt you can “fix the culture” in a short period of time, especially when it’s causing problems right here and right now. And frankly speaking, I don’t think society finds it acceptable, it’s just not that easy to prevent it unless you start putting draconian measures and hardcore surveillance with enforcement. and even that isn’t really that easy especially in huge countries like US and Canada.
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  I don't think that society finds this acceptable so much as predictable. There's a big difference, especially when you're eeking out the last fractional bits towards a higher quality of life. Even if 99 out of 100 people will behave ethically around a car with the keys literally sitting on the windshield (and I suspect the ratio is actually much higher), if 1 out of 100 causes you to have a loss of tens of thousands of dollars, you're going to want better protections than "that was unacceptable". Our political system is currently demonstrating this - in theory, public servants should be altruistically motivated, making informed and wise decisions about how to govern for the good of the people, and elections should select for these individuals. Unfortunately, this system is highly vulnerable to narcissistic, wealthy, greedy, power-hungry famous sociopaths willing to lie and compromise their ethics. We should not be surprised or disappointed when out of a nation of 300 million people, a few of those people emerge to take those positions. The sensible response is not to throw up our hands and moralize about corruption in politics, it's to design the system so that this perfectly predictable outcome doesn't keep happening. Also, while the courts are not entirely fair and free of bias, trying to enforce cultural norms about not stealing by public shaming is not likely to be any more fair. I'd rather take my chances with a lawyer, prosecutor, and jury than to have the rumor mill spread falsehoods about an immoral act I may or may not have committed.
- pixl97 3y ago
  Are you asking yourself the correct questions? For example, what unethical behaviors do you take part in that are not illegal? And if you do, why have not stopped doing them even without a law?
iraqmtpizza 3y ago
there is a lot of ambiguity about it in places like san francisco. better to lock up the deoderant than lock up a human being, the logic goes

keiferski 3y ago

I am pointing out that the response to this problem isn’t, “Hey, there is a cultural problem with society finding this acceptable” and is instead “how can we re-engineer things to prevent this?”

madeofpalk 3y ago
I don't think society finds stealing cars acceptable. That's why stealing illegal, that's why they're trying to outlaw a device that makes stealing cars easier, and why this article is trying to make it illegal to have easy-to-steal cars. Outliers stealing cars is not a demonstration that some part of society finds that ethetical.
- slingnow 3y ago
  Society largely finds marijuana use acceptable, and yet it remains a federal crime. When someone cuts me in line at the store, I don't see that as ethical or acceptable, but we don't have laws against it. So your argument that unacceptable == illegal isn't set in stone. We may have laws for things that we don't bother to enforce as a society. It's easy to see the possibility that society just views car theft as a normal occurrence ("insurance will cover it"), or perhaps too burdensome to enforce, and therefore society just accepts some amount of it without blinking an eye.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    > It's easy to see the possibility that society just views car theft as a normal occurrence ("insurance will cover it"), or perhaps too burdensome to enforce Does society believe it's acceptable behavior though? I haven't seen any evidence to support the theory that we do. After all, if we did, we'd be out there stealing cars.
kredd 3y ago
I heavily doubt you can “fix the culture” in a short period of time, especially when it’s causing problems right here and right now. And frankly speaking, I don’t think society finds it acceptable, it’s just not that easy to prevent it unless you start putting draconian measures and hardcore surveillance with enforcement. and even that isn’t really that easy especially in huge countries like US and Canada.
LeifCarrotson 3y ago
I don't think that society finds this acceptable so much as predictable. There's a big difference, especially when you're eeking out the last fractional bits towards a higher quality of life. Even if 99 out of 100 people will behave ethically around a car with the keys literally sitting on the windshield (and I suspect the ratio is actually much higher), if 1 out of 100 causes you to have a loss of tens of thousands of dollars, you're going to want better protections than "that was unacceptable". Our political system is currently demonstrating this - in theory, public servants should be altruistically motivated, making informed and wise decisions about how to govern for the good of the people, and elections should select for these individuals. Unfortunately, this system is highly vulnerable to narcissistic, wealthy, greedy, power-hungry famous sociopaths willing to lie and compromise their ethics. We should not be surprised or disappointed when out of a nation of 300 million people, a few of those people emerge to take those positions. The sensible response is not to throw up our hands and moralize about corruption in politics, it's to design the system so that this perfectly predictable outcome doesn't keep happening. Also, while the courts are not entirely fair and free of bias, trying to enforce cultural norms about not stealing by public shaming is not likely to be any more fair. I'd rather take my chances with a lawyer, prosecutor, and jury than to have the rumor mill spread falsehoods about an immoral act I may or may not have committed.
pixl97 3y ago
Are you asking yourself the correct questions? For example, what unethical behaviors do you take part in that are not illegal? And if you do, why have not stopped doing them even without a law?

iraqmtpizza 3y ago

there is a lot of ambiguity about it in places like san francisco. better to lock up the deoderant than lock up a human being, the logic goes