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> Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possi

> Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pass laws to supposedly prevent that behavior from manifesting. This is a necessary consequence of civilization. If you have a city of 8 million people, then you have 80,000 people in the bottom percentile of behavior by normative ethics. If some behavior is so outre that only 1 in a million people would do it, then there are 300 people in the US about to do it.

keiferski 3y ago
Sure, but it seems like enforce these ethical behaviors and punish the bottom 1% that goes against them is just as much of a solution as redesign society and the environment so that everyone can't act like that 1%.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  People don't want their cars stolen. Punishing the thieves doesn't undo their actions.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Great - and how is that different from the law again?
  - keiferski 3y ago
    Because the law is only punishing people that break the rules, not teaching them what ethical behavior is in the first place. It’s fundamentally a reactive process. In other words, you want people that don’t steal cars because they feel bad about it. You don’t want them to not steal cars because they’re afraid of the law.
    - whimsicalism 3y ago
      Sorry - you edited your comment substantially, the process you initially described was identical to the law.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      >because they feel bad about it. You do realize that some portion of the population can't feel bad about it right? Needless to say, I pray to whatever deities that you do not work in computer security. You would be laughed out of existence by saying "Just tell the world to be nice" rather than say, not write SQL injections. How about "Tell all the viruses to be nice and not infect cells".
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      Why do you believe this isn't happening? Things like the golden rule and other normative ethical ideas are literally being taught in schools today, from kindergarten all the way up through required college classes. The vast majority of people don't do bad things explicitly because they think it would be "bad". The vast majority of human behavior IS normative ethics right now! Next time you go to the grocery store, pay attention to what percentage of carts make it back to the cart corral vs are just left in parking lot, despite zero legal framework or forcing behavior to make it happen. The human brain however has no difficulty squaring such "good and bad" concepts with doing bad things though. Everyone believes they are the hero of their own story, and the brain is willing to lie to itself to reinforce that belief.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  You seem to suggest that parents and schools are not teaching ethical behavior. Do you think this is happening at a large scale? I know some leftists (I'm liberal) who don't seem to care about minor theft or crime because it seems like peanuts next to the civilization-wrecking greed and pollution and wealth transfer underway by the owners of capital. But I don't think that is a majority thought. I personally think the criminal justice system has decided they either won't do their jobs, or that they are so understaffed that they can't do their job of investigating and punishing crime. Again, my take is that most people of all political stripes want crime to be punished.
  - keiferski 3y ago
    I don't really get the impression that teachers are expected to instill strong moral values, more just teach the subject and then leave. With parents, my feeling is not so much that society expects them to instill strong ethical values in their children, but rather something more pragmatic, Machiavellian, "making it in life," and so forth.
nox101 3y ago
The largest metro area on the planet, Tokyo, 34 million people, is also the one of the safest with the extremely low crime. Seoul, and Singapore are both around 10 million and are also safe with low crime.
- Nursie 3y ago
  Japanese criminal procedure is … interesting from what I can tell. There is a very high conviction rate, suspiciously so. Singapore is questionably democratic, utilises corporal punishment and is described by some as a police state. I think it’s fair to say that while a strong sense of community ethics may be present in Singapore, it’s certainly not the only thing holding people in line. Seoul I know little about.
  - nox101 3y ago
    I've heard the claim the stats are not comparable. USA, each suspect is registered, then suspect gets acquitted. Stats show 100 suspects, 50 acquitted = 50% convicted. Japan there is no suspect registered unless they're already sure it will stick. In other words they've already done the investigation. So 50 suspects = 100% convicted because the 50 that there wasn't enough evidence for were never even registered as suspects. > Only about 8% of cases are actually prosecuted, and this low prosecution rate is the reason for Japan's high conviction rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Jap... If true this makes sense some cultural sense. Japan is super privacy conscious. It's Japan that got google maps to remove people's faces from street view. It's also illegal to take pictures of people in public. Being labeled a suspect would mark someone unjustly if it turns out are not likely guilty. No actual idea of that plays into the difference. Just thinking out loud.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  It's also illegal to possess a gun in Tokyo, not just illegal to shoot somebody.
  - slily 3y ago

keiferski 3y ago

Sure, but it seems like enforce these ethical behaviors and punish the bottom 1% that goes against them is just as much of a solution as redesign society and the environment so that everyone can't act like that 1%.

madeofpalk 3y ago
People don't want their cars stolen. Punishing the thieves doesn't undo their actions.
whimsicalism 3y ago
Great - and how is that different from the law again?
- keiferski 3y ago
  Because the law is only punishing people that break the rules, not teaching them what ethical behavior is in the first place. It’s fundamentally a reactive process. In other words, you want people that don’t steal cars because they feel bad about it. You don’t want them to not steal cars because they’re afraid of the law.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    Sorry - you edited your comment substantially, the process you initially described was identical to the law.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    >because they feel bad about it. You do realize that some portion of the population can't feel bad about it right? Needless to say, I pray to whatever deities that you do not work in computer security. You would be laughed out of existence by saying "Just tell the world to be nice" rather than say, not write SQL injections. How about "Tell all the viruses to be nice and not infect cells".
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Why do you believe this isn't happening? Things like the golden rule and other normative ethical ideas are literally being taught in schools today, from kindergarten all the way up through required college classes. The vast majority of people don't do bad things explicitly because they think it would be "bad". The vast majority of human behavior IS normative ethics right now! Next time you go to the grocery store, pay attention to what percentage of carts make it back to the cart corral vs are just left in parking lot, despite zero legal framework or forcing behavior to make it happen. The human brain however has no difficulty squaring such "good and bad" concepts with doing bad things though. Everyone believes they are the hero of their own story, and the brain is willing to lie to itself to reinforce that belief.
unethical_ban 3y ago
You seem to suggest that parents and schools are not teaching ethical behavior. Do you think this is happening at a large scale? I know some leftists (I'm liberal) who don't seem to care about minor theft or crime because it seems like peanuts next to the civilization-wrecking greed and pollution and wealth transfer underway by the owners of capital. But I don't think that is a majority thought. I personally think the criminal justice system has decided they either won't do their jobs, or that they are so understaffed that they can't do their job of investigating and punishing crime. Again, my take is that most people of all political stripes want crime to be punished.
- keiferski 3y ago
  I don't really get the impression that teachers are expected to instill strong moral values, more just teach the subject and then leave. With parents, my feeling is not so much that society expects them to instill strong ethical values in their children, but rather something more pragmatic, Machiavellian, "making it in life," and so forth.

nox101 3y ago

The largest metro area on the planet, Tokyo, 34 million people, is also the one of the safest with the extremely low crime. Seoul, and Singapore are both around 10 million and are also safe with low crime.

Nursie 3y ago
Japanese criminal procedure is … interesting from what I can tell. There is a very high conviction rate, suspiciously so. Singapore is questionably democratic, utilises corporal punishment and is described by some as a police state. I think it’s fair to say that while a strong sense of community ethics may be present in Singapore, it’s certainly not the only thing holding people in line. Seoul I know little about.
- nox101 3y ago
  I've heard the claim the stats are not comparable. USA, each suspect is registered, then suspect gets acquitted. Stats show 100 suspects, 50 acquitted = 50% convicted. Japan there is no suspect registered unless they're already sure it will stick. In other words they've already done the investigation. So 50 suspects = 100% convicted because the 50 that there wasn't enough evidence for were never even registered as suspects. > Only about 8% of cases are actually prosecuted, and this low prosecution rate is the reason for Japan's high conviction rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Jap... If true this makes sense some cultural sense. Japan is super privacy conscious. It's Japan that got google maps to remove people's faces from street view. It's also illegal to take pictures of people in public. Being labeled a suspect would mark someone unjustly if it turns out are not likely guilty. No actual idea of that plays into the difference. Just thinking out loud.
aidenn0 3y ago
It's also illegal to possess a gun in Tokyo, not just illegal to shoot somebody.
- slily 3y ago