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> religious or ethical norms Truly confused why `religious` norms come into play here.

by 2024throwaway 3y ago

keiferski 3y ago
Because the modern Western world is in a "religion hangover" where it wants to reject all outwardly religious ideas, while simultaneously denying that a) religions have been the foundation of pretty much all ethical behavior since the beginning of civilization and b) many supposedly secular belief systems are really just extensions of religious ones with the "I believe in..." statement cut off.
- stuartjohnson12 3y ago
  I think the important distinction is not similarity/distance as a vector of meaning, but the ability to update those vectors in response to new data.
- 2024throwaway 3y ago
  > religions have been the foundation of pretty much all ethical behavior since the beginning of civilization I reject this statement wholeheartedly, and find it a pretty disgusting stance. The idea that the only reason not to kill someone (or otherwise act ethically) is due to religion is horrendous, especially given most religions historical track record on murdering others and other ethical violations.
  - keiferski 3y ago
    I think you'd have a pretty difficult time constructing a history of morality that doesn't involve what we refer to as "religion." Certainly that doesn't mean that all religious beliefs are good or justifiable, but that isn't what I claimed, either. I just claimed they were the foundation.
    - 2024throwaway 3y ago
      I would argue it's the opposite. "Maybe killing people is bad. How do we get people to not do that? Tell them god said not to!" It starts from the ethical perspective, and uses religion as the blunt hammer to drive it into the masses.
    - efdee 3y ago
      Sure, but that is hard because religion is such a big part of our history. There aren't many large scale things from the past you can describe without talking about the influence of religion, because well, religion was there and it was pretty prominent. However, that doesn't say much about whether religion was necessary for morality to substantiate. In fact, so many immoral things have been carried out in the name of religion, that you might as well wonder if we would have been much more morally advanced by now if it hadn't been for religion.
      - keiferski 3y ago
        > if we would have been much more morally advanced by now if it hadn't been for religion. Kind of an unanswerable question, but I think my tentative answer is "not really." Mostly because the moral viewpoints that underly atheistic criticisms of (usually Christian) religion tend to themselves be derived from earlier Christian ideas. I don't think it's likely that we'd have a universalist sense of democracy/human life without the underlying Christian soul concept. The Romans, for example, had no qualms about human life being divided into "valuable" and "not valuable" groups. You could use the criticisms of someone like Nietzsche against Christianity and say we'd be more advanced without it, but I don't think this is probably the type of "advanced" that most people today would have it mind.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      > I just claimed they were the foundation. That's an extreme claim that requires extreme evidence. You don't just get to pretend your preferred interpretation of a history that humans don't even have (prewriting society) is correct just because you want it to be.
  - patmorgan23 3y ago
    How many European states where founded as theocratic monarchys? The United States is found on the idea that "All men are created equal, and endowed by their creator (God) with certain unalienable rights" Yes people have done horrible things in the name of religion. But you still can't talk about morality without talking about religion. (And I'm an atheist)
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  Not sure about Western world as a whole here. Some countries do not have such hard separation between church and state, but governing parties with clear religious affiliation, constitutions referencing God, religious holidays with bans on certain activities, etc.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Because the bible probably says "Thou shall not use a Flipper Zero to break into thy neighbor's chambers."
engineer_22 3y ago
Religious norms guide behavior. They are a course in ethics for those without undergraduate education.
- 2024throwaway 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - engineer_22 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - 2024throwaway 3y ago
      You can just say "I have no defense of my statement" instead of acting like I'm the one out of line. You claimed religious norms are a course in ethics, I provided counter examples. Try and do better.
      - engineer_22 3y ago
        your handle is a throwaway - do better.
- pnut 3y ago
  Nietzsche gave us a religion-free solution in the concept of Ubermensch 150 years ago, it's still too controversial today.
  - keiferski 3y ago
    The Übermensch is fortunately/unfortunately not a mass-market kind of product, but one designed for isolated individuals.
  - engineer_22 3y ago
    Yes, another example is Humanism.

> religious or ethical norms Truly confused why `religious` norms come into play here.

Because the modern Western world is in a "religion hangover" where it wants to reject all outwardly religious ideas, while simultaneously denying that a) religions have been the foundation of pretty much all ethical behavior since the beginning of civilization and b) many supposedly secular belief systems are really just extensions of religious ones with the "I believe in..." statement cut off.

stuartjohnson12 3y ago
I think the important distinction is not similarity/distance as a vector of meaning, but the ability to update those vectors in response to new data.
2024throwaway 3y ago
> religions have been the foundation of pretty much all ethical behavior since the beginning of civilization I reject this statement wholeheartedly, and find it a pretty disgusting stance. The idea that the only reason not to kill someone (or otherwise act ethically) is due to religion is horrendous, especially given most religions historical track record on murdering others and other ethical violations.
- keiferski 3y ago
  I think you'd have a pretty difficult time constructing a history of morality that doesn't involve what we refer to as "religion." Certainly that doesn't mean that all religious beliefs are good or justifiable, but that isn't what I claimed, either. I just claimed they were the foundation.
  - 2024throwaway 3y ago
    I would argue it's the opposite. "Maybe killing people is bad. How do we get people to not do that? Tell them god said not to!" It starts from the ethical perspective, and uses religion as the blunt hammer to drive it into the masses.
  - efdee 3y ago
    Sure, but that is hard because religion is such a big part of our history. There aren't many large scale things from the past you can describe without talking about the influence of religion, because well, religion was there and it was pretty prominent. However, that doesn't say much about whether religion was necessary for morality to substantiate. In fact, so many immoral things have been carried out in the name of religion, that you might as well wonder if we would have been much more morally advanced by now if it hadn't been for religion.
    - keiferski 3y ago
      > if we would have been much more morally advanced by now if it hadn't been for religion. Kind of an unanswerable question, but I think my tentative answer is "not really." Mostly because the moral viewpoints that underly atheistic criticisms of (usually Christian) religion tend to themselves be derived from earlier Christian ideas. I don't think it's likely that we'd have a universalist sense of democracy/human life without the underlying Christian soul concept. The Romans, for example, had no qualms about human life being divided into "valuable" and "not valuable" groups. You could use the criticisms of someone like Nietzsche against Christianity and say we'd be more advanced without it, but I don't think this is probably the type of "advanced" that most people today would have it mind.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    > I just claimed they were the foundation. That's an extreme claim that requires extreme evidence. You don't just get to pretend your preferred interpretation of a history that humans don't even have (prewriting society) is correct just because you want it to be.
- patmorgan23 3y ago
  How many European states where founded as theocratic monarchys? The United States is found on the idea that "All men are created equal, and endowed by their creator (God) with certain unalienable rights" Yes people have done horrible things in the name of religion. But you still can't talk about morality without talking about religion. (And I'm an atheist)
RandomLensman 3y ago
Not sure about Western world as a whole here. Some countries do not have such hard separation between church and state, but governing parties with clear religious affiliation, constitutions referencing God, religious holidays with bans on certain activities, etc.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

Because the bible probably says "Thou shall not use a Flipper Zero to break into thy neighbor's chambers."

engineer_22 3y ago

Religious norms guide behavior. They are a course in ethics for those without undergraduate education.

2024throwaway 3y ago
[flagged]
- engineer_22 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - 2024throwaway 3y ago
    You can just say "I have no defense of my statement" instead of acting like I'm the one out of line. You claimed religious norms are a course in ethics, I provided counter examples. Try and do better.
    - engineer_22 3y ago
      your handle is a throwaway - do better.
pnut 3y ago
Nietzsche gave us a religion-free solution in the concept of Ubermensch 150 years ago, it's still too controversial today.
- keiferski 3y ago
  The Übermensch is fortunately/unfortunately not a mass-market kind of product, but one designed for isolated individuals.
- engineer_22 3y ago
  Yes, another example is Humanism.