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I haven't tried Remix, but the sentiments in the comments makes me feel it's another framework that sounds like it's sick of the current complexity around stuff

by h4ch1 3y ago

I haven't tried Remix, but the sentiments in the comments makes me feel it's another framework that sounds like it's sick of the current complexity around stuff like SvelteKit and Next, but that's exactly how I felt when Svelte came out 3-4 years back, so what's to stop this from going down the exact same route where "just one more feature" snowballs into something unrecognizable? I maybe don't understand the parallels being drawn at the moment, so this view is subject to change when I dig in a little deeper.

ulimn 3y ago
I think one could say that Remix is simple in the sense that there is less magic and reinventing the wheel like in the case of Next. It's not simpler as in less features.
robust-cactus 3y ago
Finding the right abstraction is hard. To me in seems clear Next is tuned for Vercel Now. If you build in a compatible way it works great, it's a nice "serverless" setup for serving pages. There's a whole range of use cases this doesn't work for: eg realtime apps, apps that care more than average about security, etc.
azemetre 3y ago
Would you care to speak about cases where Svelte added “one more feature” that ruined simplicity? Or were you referring to something else? Genuinely curious as I’m burnt out of the react ecosystem entirely. Svelte seems good but haven’t done much out of demo projects.
- h4ch1 3y ago
  Compared to React, Svelte is great, but compared to Svelte from when it came out, it's pretty different. I started using when Svelte+Sapper was a thing, simple filesystem routing was the great selling point, then came SvelteKit which introduced plus based routing like +page.ts,*.client/server.ts, inside folders which IMO is a bit more tedious. and now there are runes, I spent sometime understanding the reactivity syntax using $ and could intuit around it pretty well, but now I've got to re-learn that as well xd. Note though, I still love Svelte and don't have an issue re-learning since I knew using it before pre-1.0 would certainly involve breaking changes, but the API really did move around a lot and caused some issue. It's also pretty clean to write and understand Svelte code, feels almost like writing pure HTML/TS. I personally have built multiple enterprise grade applications (something akin to Substance Painter) using Svelte, and though the reactive dependency chains got long (due to my own faults) they were easily abstractable and resulted in code that's still able to be maintained by junior devs and has survived multiple refactors due to the changing APIs with minimal friction.
jackbravo 3y ago
I think they give a very good answer in their own blog: https://remix.run/blog/not-another-framework https://remix.run/blog/not-another-framework Summary: Learn Remix, Accidentally Learn the Web > It is an explicit goal of ours to design APIs that are high-level enough to help you just get the job done, but close enough to the web to backfill your fundamental knowledge of Kung Fu the web. That's something I really like about remix.
- h4ch1 3y ago
  tbh I am not sure I agree that's a selling point, how much can you abstract away till people have no clue what's happening internally and are lost when usecase X is more complicated than simple CRUD. If I want to learn web fundamentals I SHOULD learn web fundamentals, not through an API that makes it seem like magic, because it's not transferable to other frameworks/platforms. This creates problems for new developers as well, who in this day and age learn frameworks instead of the underlying tech, and then bring that mindset to other domains. I've had so many React devs being unable to work with say a Svelte or a vanilla HTML/TS applications because their web development skills are actually React skills. For ex this line here "When you learn how to handle requests and send responses in Remix, you're actually learning the Web Fetch API that's in the browser already." I'd rather just use fetch so I know explicitly what I am doing.
0xblinq 3y ago
I’m one of those using remix and I do like it a lot, but I don’t have much hope. I wish I’m wrong but probably in a couple years we’ll be all hating it. I also liked next a lot in the early days. Somehow they always manage to fuck yo and nothing reaches “Rails” levels of stability/popularity in the js world.

by h4ch1 3y ago

ulimn 3y ago

I think one could say that Remix is simple in the sense that there is less magic and reinventing the wheel like in the case of Next. It's not simpler as in less features.

robust-cactus 3y ago

Finding the right abstraction is hard. To me in seems clear Next is tuned for Vercel Now. If you build in a compatible way it works great, it's a nice "serverless" setup for serving pages. There's a whole range of use cases this doesn't work for: eg realtime apps, apps that care more than average about security, etc.

azemetre 3y ago

Would you care to speak about cases where Svelte added “one more feature” that ruined simplicity? Or were you referring to something else? Genuinely curious as I’m burnt out of the react ecosystem entirely. Svelte seems good but haven’t done much out of demo projects.

h4ch1 3y ago
Compared to React, Svelte is great, but compared to Svelte from when it came out, it's pretty different. I started using when Svelte+Sapper was a thing, simple filesystem routing was the great selling point, then came SvelteKit which introduced plus based routing like +page.ts,*.client/server.ts, inside folders which IMO is a bit more tedious. and now there are runes, I spent sometime understanding the reactivity syntax using $ and could intuit around it pretty well, but now I've got to re-learn that as well xd. Note though, I still love Svelte and don't have an issue re-learning since I knew using it before pre-1.0 would certainly involve breaking changes, but the API really did move around a lot and caused some issue. It's also pretty clean to write and understand Svelte code, feels almost like writing pure HTML/TS. I personally have built multiple enterprise grade applications (something akin to Substance Painter) using Svelte, and though the reactive dependency chains got long (due to my own faults) they were easily abstractable and resulted in code that's still able to be maintained by junior devs and has survived multiple refactors due to the changing APIs with minimal friction.

jackbravo 3y ago

I think they give a very good answer in their own blog: https://remix.run/blog/not-another-framework https://remix.run/blog/not-another-framework Summary: Learn Remix, Accidentally Learn the Web > It is an explicit goal of ours to design APIs that are high-level enough to help you just get the job done, but close enough to the web to backfill your fundamental knowledge of Kung Fu the web. That's something I really like about remix.

h4ch1 3y ago
tbh I am not sure I agree that's a selling point, how much can you abstract away till people have no clue what's happening internally and are lost when usecase X is more complicated than simple CRUD. If I want to learn web fundamentals I SHOULD learn web fundamentals, not through an API that makes it seem like magic, because it's not transferable to other frameworks/platforms. This creates problems for new developers as well, who in this day and age learn frameworks instead of the underlying tech, and then bring that mindset to other domains. I've had so many React devs being unable to work with say a Svelte or a vanilla HTML/TS applications because their web development skills are actually React skills. For ex this line here "When you learn how to handle requests and send responses in Remix, you're actually learning the Web Fetch API that's in the browser already." I'd rather just use fetch so I know explicitly what I am doing.

0xblinq 3y ago

I’m one of those using remix and I do like it a lot, but I don’t have much hope. I wish I’m wrong but probably in a couple years we’ll be all hating it. I also liked next a lot in the early days. Somehow they always manage to fuck yo and nothing reaches “Rails” levels of stability/popularity in the js world.