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> What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. It’s not the 2000s any more. Even national se

by acdha 3y ago

> What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. It’s not the 2000s any more. Even national security agencies have trouble with phone decryption, and that suggests a path forward for cars using a tamper-resistant secure element since car thieves won’t spend more money attacking something than they can resell it for. Cars need service regularly you can have a way to replace a damaged SE which is more restricted so a legitimate owner can regain control of their stolen property - if you required, say, a government photo ID check for the owner on the title to reset the encryption keys, car thieves are highly unlikely to spend time getting high-quality fake ID since the odds of getting caught would go up dramatically, and you could deter shady auto shops by requiring them to submit proof of their ID verification for that service.

newsclues 3y ago
They get exported overseas and any technology lock or security device gets ripped out and replaced. This isn’t about extracting encrypted data, but bypassing systems to start a car.
- acdha 3y ago
  Yes, because the current design is lax. Now think about what happens if the engine computer won’t start with a bad signature or the entertainment system won’t work. How would that affect the overseas market?
  - newsclues 3y ago
    The part that requires a signature will be taken out and replaced. Infotainment systems will get gutted and replaced with aftermarket ones.
    - acdha 3y ago
      Again, all of those lower the value to the thieves. If they need to create a custom engine controller, they’re going to need to pay a lot more than the $0 they currently spend. If they need to replace the entertainment system, the cost of doing so will cut into their margin. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that a system needs to be perfect to be worthwhile.
      - numpad0 3y ago
        I think you're in a desktop computer "whole product is one computer" moddel. A car is a set of computers, almost nothing in a car is central to itself. There's probably a body controller ECU that ties into engine ECU and driver's key systems. So theives would just generate and flash a new key/cert, that'll be certainly possible. Infotainment? That's almost literally an aftermarket parts. American reviewers tend to see it as integral part of a car or even a central computer, surely it's important in terms of product experience but architecturally it's more like a printer over Ethernet than a laptop integrated display.
        acdha 3y ago
        > There's probably a body controller ECU that ties into engine ECU and driver's key systems. So theives would just generate and flash a new key/cert, that'll be certainly possible. This sounds like the old desktop mentality you mentioned. You can’t just reflash things to bypass a secure boot process – the entire point is to prevent things like that! You’d design the driver’s key to pair with the various onboard systems and those systems to do a challenge-response cycle during the boot process so someone can’t easily drive away without the key or resell those parts, with both sides using a private key which never leaves that component. Yes, that kind of design can still be attacked but the goal here is to make it more expensive than it’s worth: needing a flatbed to take it somewhere for a rogue EE to work on it, for example, just isn’t going to make sense except for the most expensive luxury vehicles. This brings me to: > Infotainment? That's almost literally an aftermarket parts. Yes, and those cost money. The entire point is that you don’t need to make it perfect, just expensive. If someone has to replace the display and speakers, that means they’re making less profit on the sale and making it more obvious that the vehicle was stolen which increases risk and reduces the number of buyers, especially for the most valuable vehicles.
        numpad0 3y ago
        > This sounds like the old desktop mentality you mentioned. You can’t just reflash things to bypass a secure boot process – the entire point is to prevent things like that! The actual real problem I failed to explain is manufacturers don't want to deal with networked authentication, broken physical keys, or day-to-day repair shop operations, so they keep most of the processes offline and send out re-pairing tools that leaks. Very few cars require breaking chain of trust to swap out parts which makes "If they need to create a custom engine controller, ..." part unrealistic as of now. It takes few more years before Apple starts delivering cars.

by acdha 3y ago

newsclues 3y ago

They get exported overseas and any technology lock or security device gets ripped out and replaced. This isn’t about extracting encrypted data, but bypassing systems to start a car.

acdha 3y ago
Yes, because the current design is lax. Now think about what happens if the engine computer won’t start with a bad signature or the entertainment system won’t work. How would that affect the overseas market?
- newsclues 3y ago
  The part that requires a signature will be taken out and replaced. Infotainment systems will get gutted and replaced with aftermarket ones.
  - acdha 3y ago
    Again, all of those lower the value to the thieves. If they need to create a custom engine controller, they’re going to need to pay a lot more than the $0 they currently spend. If they need to replace the entertainment system, the cost of doing so will cut into their margin. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that a system needs to be perfect to be worthwhile.
    - numpad0 3y ago
      I think you're in a desktop computer "whole product is one computer" moddel. A car is a set of computers, almost nothing in a car is central to itself. There's probably a body controller ECU that ties into engine ECU and driver's key systems. So theives would just generate and flash a new key/cert, that'll be certainly possible. Infotainment? That's almost literally an aftermarket parts. American reviewers tend to see it as integral part of a car or even a central computer, surely it's important in terms of product experience but architecturally it's more like a printer over Ethernet than a laptop integrated display.
      - acdha 3y ago
        > There's probably a body controller ECU that ties into engine ECU and driver's key systems. So theives would just generate and flash a new key/cert, that'll be certainly possible. This sounds like the old desktop mentality you mentioned. You can’t just reflash things to bypass a secure boot process – the entire point is to prevent things like that! You’d design the driver’s key to pair with the various onboard systems and those systems to do a challenge-response cycle during the boot process so someone can’t easily drive away without the key or resell those parts, with both sides using a private key which never leaves that component. Yes, that kind of design can still be attacked but the goal here is to make it more expensive than it’s worth: needing a flatbed to take it somewhere for a rogue EE to work on it, for example, just isn’t going to make sense except for the most expensive luxury vehicles. This brings me to: > Infotainment? That's almost literally an aftermarket parts. Yes, and those cost money. The entire point is that you don’t need to make it perfect, just expensive. If someone has to replace the display and speakers, that means they’re making less profit on the sale and making it more obvious that the vehicle was stolen which increases risk and reduces the number of buyers, especially for the most valuable vehicles.
        numpad0 3y ago
        > This sounds like the old desktop mentality you mentioned. You can’t just reflash things to bypass a secure boot process – the entire point is to prevent things like that! The actual real problem I failed to explain is manufacturers don't want to deal with networked authentication, broken physical keys, or day-to-day repair shop operations, so they keep most of the processes offline and send out re-pairing tools that leaks. Very few cars require breaking chain of trust to swap out parts which makes "If they need to create a custom engine controller, ..." part unrealistic as of now. It takes few more years before Apple starts delivering cars.