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It's the classic situation of someone without ADHD telling us "just focus!" or "you just need to write things down!" or "you're just lazy". I have ADHD, and I
by prometheus76 3y ago
It's the classic situation of someone without ADHD telling us "just focus!" or "you just need to write things down!" or "you're just lazy".
I have ADHD, and I also do not have a sense of smell (lost it in a TBI when I was a teenager). I tell people, "you take for granted what it's like to have a sense of smell. It affects every moment of your day, catching your interest and directing your attention all the time. Imagine not having a sense of smell. Imagine not smelling dinner or smelling your wife or smelling your baby. Imagine not smelling flowers or not smelling a gas leak. So much of what you take for granted comes from your sense of smell. Having ADHD is like that. You take executive function for granted, and can't imagine what it's like to not have that. When you say 'just write things down!' it's like saying 'just smell harder!'"
- darkwater 3y agoI'm not a medical expert or anything but I guess there is a good chunk of population who just procrastinates or can struggle with focus without having ADHD? Or is there always a 1:1 relationship?
- pjc50 3y agoADHD, like a lot of things relating to the brain, is not a binary condition; it's just the diagnosis that's binary.
- dartos 3y agoIt’s likely that a lot more people have ADHD than we think, but I don’t think everyone who procrastinates does so bc of ADHD
- adadadadadad 3y agoIf you read the diagnostic criteria that is used, it’s so broad it could easily apply to most of the world’s population…as long as they declare they have trouble focusing.
- corobo 3y agoMany people probably do have the same brain wiring, or maybe it's a low level of background dopamine, or whatever it turns out to be once science figures it out. The reason most of the worlds population isn't diagnosed[0] is that second D: Disorder. No disorder, no problem, no diagnosis. [0] outside of lack of access to mental health resources, not knowing what they're looking for so never getting referred to a place to diagnose it, not believing in treating mental health issues, self-medicating, avoiding stigma, etc
- hirvi74 3y agoI liken it to forgetfulness in old age. A majority of elderly people see a decline in memory as they age. Not every elderly person who is forgetful necessarily has dementia.
- dartos 3y agoYeah it’s hard to write specific criteria for some mental disorders. They’re not all uniform in presentation or affect. It’d really be up to the therapist. Thankfully, it doesn’t seem like most of the ADHD meds usually have long lasting adverse effects.
- adadadadadad 3y agoThe brain does adapt to adhd meds and there are studies showing this. The thing I don’t like about adhd is that the premise is the brain doesn’t produce enough dopamine so we return it to normal levels…but the brain always seeks homeostasis so it will adapt by producing more dopamine reuptake cells. There are no conclusive imaging studies or genetic markers for it. The meds certainly do work but if you ask someone to explain their condition to you they have all have the same simplified and erroneous explanation as to why they can handle addictive meds and the general population cannot. I think it’s pretty much a general smart drug but with high risk of addiction.
- projektfu 3y agoI disagree. I think that 6 months or more of 5/9 symptoms of inattentiveness or 5/9 symptoms of hyperactivity, persistently, does not represent most of the world. (And excluding: "The symptoms are not solely a manifestation of oppositional behavior, defiance, hostility, or failure to understand tasks or instructions." 6/9 symptoms are required to diagnose children) [0] Indeed, surveys show that it's probably under 10% [1]. Mind you, these are surveys of symptoms, not surveys of diagnoses. 0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t3/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t3/ 1. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/208678 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/...
- snazz 3y agoA lot of people (myself included) procrastinate on something because it's emotionally uncomfortable, without necessarily having ADHD. For example, when I was much younger, I'd procrastinate on math homework specifically, not because I struggled with focus, but because it was difficult to admit to myself that I didn't know how to do it and would need to practice. Subjects that came more naturally to me (English, science) didn't give me a "fear of failure" response in the same way.
- darkwater 3y agoYep, that's my experience as well. Or because it's just something I don't like to do that much or that doesn't give me some good hormone to my brain in exchange after doing it.
- WhitneyLand 3y agoMakes perfect sense. Kind of interesting the opposite can bite too: Math came naturally to me, but after seeing some high standardized test scores adults paraded them around and made a big deal of it, so it became stressful to do without perfect outcomes. For my own kids I just refused to allow a lot of that stuff like IQ testing, etc.
- helboi4 3y agoHow do you overcome this? I've avoided things due to emotional discomfort my whole life and I don't think I can ever do better at this point. I find that it requires conscious effort to learn to do things that are required as standard for most adults.
- snazz 3y agoWith math specifically I had a good teacher in high school who made us practice in class together. He'd get everyone to sit around a table and he'd give handheld whiteboards to every fourth or fifth person (depending on the number of basic steps in the problem), and then the person with the whiteboard would do the first step and pass it to the person on their right. That experience stuck with me because just forcing me to get started (with help available) was enough to quickly clear up anything I was avoiding getting started on at home. I still avoid doing things because they're emotionally uncomfortable occasionally, so I haven't really found a general solution. But it's gotten better over time and it's less of an issue when I'm more invested in something.
- LoganDark 3y agoADHD is a spectrum, so it can have different severities. Some people simply find it more difficult to function well whereas some people find it absolutely and utterly impossible.
- hirvi74 3y ago> ADHD is a spectrum When analyzing people what is not a spectrum? Every human attribute can be placed on a spectrum. Even other diseases, disorders, etc.. A broken bone can be a hairline crack or shattered into pieces.
- _yb2s 3y agoWhat spectrum means in this context is that it's a multi-dimensional problem- different levels of severity across a large number of different dimensions. Executive function is typically broken up into a large number of different functions, and people have different levels of each, so a person that functions well in one context might do poorly in another, and vice versa.
- LoganDark 3y ago> What spectrum means in this context is that it's a multi-dimensional problem I used "spectrum" to mean that ADHD is not always severe enough to cause outright disability, but the underlying problems can still be present to a lower degree. The parent mentioned "procrastinates or can struggle with focus without having ADHD" (emphasis mine) and I wanted to point out that some of those people may also have some very mild form of ADHD.
- WhitneyLand 3y agoExtreme forms of procrastination do not mean that someone has ADHD by definition. It can be rooted in anxiety, stress, depression, other mental health conditions. It can be lack of motivation, or simply the habits and behaviors one has developed over time. I’d really like to know in addition to personal anecdotes of successfully overcoming it, what on average turns out to be most effective?
- prometheus76 3y agoI was diagnosed with anxiety and ADHD about 8 years ago, and since then, I have mainly worked on my anxiety. My anxiety has diminished drastically, and I have found that my ADHD symptoms are now manageable without medication (although I still struggle some days). For me, ADHD led to failing in my daily duties as a kid, which led to higher and higher levels of anxiety, which really exacerbated my ADHD symptoms. Now that I have learned how to control my anxiety, and with the resulting calming of my nervous system, the ADHD isn't nearly as problematic. TL;DR: anxiety and ADHD are often intertwined and they spiral each other out of control, so what looks like ADHD is sometimes much worse because of anxiety.
- annie_muss 3y agoThe real measure is the level of harm. That's it. My ADHD meant I couldn't hold down a job or relationship. You lose your job enough times and the depression that follows is inevitable. That said, I can imagine a Dustin where I had stumbled into a different career, a different family situation. Then my ADHD might not have caused enough problems to be a disorder.
- adadadadadad 3y agoI sometimes wonder if it’s just a sign of being in the wrong career. A lot of people chase the money in an area of general interest. But the actual tasks they are being paid for might simply not be what they are suited for. If always think to myself if only brainstorming, ideation and online shopping were a career haha.
- Modified3019 3y agoADHD is definitely a major cause, but another big one which is much more complex to talk about is “avoidant” type behaviors that are a result of trauma/neglect/abuse early in life. There is correlation that occurs among diagnoses of ADHD, Autism, CPTSD, and other “mental issues”, such that by the time one becomes noticeable as having pathological effect, then it’s likely to be able to identify at least a few more issues acting in a comorbid manner.
- adadadadadad 3y agoAvoidant behaviors can also just be a result of getting older. Everyday is the youngest you will ever be and gradually doors close off to you which can induce panic and anxiety. Starting a task towards a longer term goal brings to the forefront of how little time you have left.
- hirvi74 3y agoIt's a square vs. rectangle kind of thing.
- slowmovintarget 3y agoDeep breath in... Many people who suffer from ADHD actually have undiagnosed allergies. My father was told he had ADHD late in life... he had allergies. I had problems with focus and being scatterbrained... on days the tree pollen was up. Kiddo was starting to get easily distracted and unable to focus on schoolwork... It was an allergy to the hard wheat used in U.S. bread making and preservatives. You [edit: most people] don't just "have ADHD." That's like diagnosing someone with a headache disorder. There's an underlying cause that requires more work to dig out.
- Jommi 3y agoNo that's not true. ADHD is a real thing that exists. You shominimize that. Now are there other disorders/illnesses/allergies that affect concentration definition. A lot of people have deviated septum or allergies that make nasal bresthing incredibly hard without effort. Of course this has a major effect on concentration. Other examples surely exist. But please don't minimize real debilitating ADHD.
- slowmovintarget 3y agoI'm not talking about difficulty breathing. I'm talking about a systemic inflammatory response from allergies that includes neurological symptoms like an inability to focus, problems with reading comprehension, and uncontrolled daydreaming or "tuning out." Every time I got my allergy shots, my concentration was shot for the day, and it had zero to do with my nasal passages. I'm not minimizing the problems of those who suffer from ADHD. I'm hoping that they work with their doctors to see if there's more going on.
- _yb2s 3y agoI don't think they are in any way minimizing ADHD. ADHD is diagnosed by symptoms, and has a large number of different possible underlying causes, most of which are not well understood. When ADHD is caused or worsened by an allergy, that in no way makes it not real ADHD, but can make it easier to treat, if the allergy is identified! It's known that ADHD is highly heritable and has some specific genetic mutations weakly associated with it, but it can also be caused by traumatic brain injury, toxin exposure, some food dyes and preservatives, and allergies. It's very likely that many of the heritable genetic factors themselves have interactions with external environmental factors, and can therefore be treated with environmental manipulation, if we can understand it better.
- brnt 3y agoPeople love to label things, and parents overlabelling ADHD has been a common warning among anyone working with kids now. In broader context I think we are now finally starting to pay attention to the fact every single human is subtly or not so subtly different, and we haven't even scratched the surface of mapping all those particularities and so we put people into categories we know, not necessarily where the actually belong. It's great were slowly letting go of 'normalising' ourselves, but we're going to have to learn entirely news vocabularies to says describe who we then are. Also, by thinking about yourself you define yourself, so if you think differently you define differently. I.e. we are fluid, to a certain extent.
- bookofjoe 3y agoMemories of my ex-wife admonishing me, while in the throes of a deep, disabling episode of clinical depression, to "Snap out of it!"
- bloopernova 3y agoI'm sorry that happened to you. The phrase that made my then wife an ex-wife for me was "you're not supposed to be fixing yourself you're supposed to be fixing our marriage!" Led me (with therapy and time) to realize what I meant to her; I was an accessory.
- camillomiller 3y agoOh wow, glad for you she’s ex now
- brnt 3y agoWut, wild for her to not see how those two are so interlinked that separating them is considered old fashioned nowadays by therapists.
- verisimi 3y ago"Snap out of it!" lol Sorry. I actually relate to this!
- Arrath 3y agoSame. And all the comparisons akin to "Hey what are you sad about? You don't live in a third world country struggling from meal to meal!" Very helpful, thank you.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- d0100 3y agoIronically, "snapping out of it" is the best way I can deal with it No other reasoning with myself works better than just "snapping out"
- adadadadadad 3y ago[dead]
- helboi4 3y agoI just had my new therapist yesterday telling me "doesn't it feel good to be consistent and achieve things" and I'm like yeah no shit. "so you need to be consistent with something" yeah that's my problem dawg. "what's the feeling you get when you want to quit?" it just happens that my life falls apart or I get really into sth else. does nobody else just lose track of all the bricks required to do things sometimes? "it will eventually not become effort to do these things" no sir I can tell you from experience that it NEVER becomes natural for me to be organised and motivated. It takes substantial effort for me just to use a diary, which apparently is what is supposed to make me organised. Sometimes it becomes easiER because I have a streak of good habits, but it can fall apart at any moment because it's all a precarious conscious effort. "that's because you've never stuck to anything long enough" i've stuck to different things for different lengths of time, at what point are you suggesting this actually starts working? God I hate therapists. I sure do hope I actually have ADHD. Otherwise I'm fucked.
- SleepilyLimping 3y agoIt's always uncomfortable with a new therapist because they lack the context to know what you're going through, for how long, and the factors that are affecting it. I've seen mine for over a decade at this point, and when I talk to people about their potential growing pains when they're seeking out help, a lot of it is a reminder that you have to create that context/history with them over time. It seems like yours is more comfortable making suppositions without the historical context, which sucks to hear and is pretty exhausting.
- helboi4 3y agoYeah, most therapists have pissed me off because its infuriating having to teach a so called expert how to understand you at a premium price. I find it ludicrous that they'd be able to tell me anything about myself that I don't know or that my friends couldn't point out to me, because I'm not exactly someone who struggles to analyse myself. I'm not unfamiliar with journalling, I have read tons of stuf about psychology and I'm not afraid to confront these things. I have therefore quit all therapy I've tried after a couple months tops because I can't justify paying to see how it goes. However, I am trying it again now because I am paying nothing now because of insurance. So even if I'm skeptical I lose nothing. So hopefully I'll get to the point of them having enough context to be helpful and can assess it properly this time.
- doubled112 3y ago> you just need to write things down That's fine and all, but where did I write it down again? I lost my sense of smell for a few weeks with covid, and I actually can relate now. It's a very, very strange thing to be without. It doesn't seem that important until it's missing, but now I can't imagine life without it.
- hirvi74 3y agoI'm doubly screwed. Like you said > "It's the classic situation of someone without ADHD telling us "just focus!" or "you just need to write things down!" or "you're just lazy". Of course, this advice was never helpful and did not work. However, I was properly diagnosed, went to medication route, coupled it with therapy, and I'm still not better. Now, the medication and all that is definitely better than nothing, and I still rely on the relief I get. But the benefit of modern medicine for me is like taking a low dosage of painkillers for 3rd degree burns.
- adadadadadad 3y agoBe cautious, the meds can make it worse in the long run as your brain seeks homeostasis and now demands even more dopamine than before to motivate.
- hirvi74 3y agoI swear you are on to something. I have been on them for 9 years, and I am basically fried and useless. It's as if I had never been treated at all, if not worse than that. I feel like I am in a constant state of burnout, without actually being burned out, so to speak.
- adadadadadad 3y agoYou will find that a lot of negative ADHD med discussion is censored. Even on HN if you question the science or legitimacy of an ADHD diagnosis you will have posts removed. It's a pretty deep rabbit hole to go down if you are game, and there are massive financial incentives to increasing diagnosis rates. If you drink too much coffee it loses its effect. This is the same but with a much stronger and extremely addictive drug. Some readings: ADHD in the DSM-5-TR: What has changed and what has not - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9871920/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9871920/ The scientific integrity of ADHD: A critical examination of the underpinning theoretical constructs- https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2022.1062484/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.... Tolerance to Stimulant Medication for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: Literature Review and Case Report https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9332474/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9332474/ ADHD is sold as a neurodevelopmental disorder which means you had it since birth, where they hypothesize that your brain doesn't make enough dopamine so you can't focus, so they simply return it to "normal" levels with meds. This is used to justify why normal people can't have it, and also why ADHD people won't simply develop tolerance and get addicted. But there is no "normal" across people. Your brain ships with a system that does everything it can to maintain its levels of dopamine, aka homeostasis. There is no conclusive brain imaging evidence of it being a result of a brain defect. It could just as well be environmental or masquerading as social media addiction, or any other afflictions caused by rapid societal change. So you potentially mess up everyone's brains and get them hooked on pills for a lifetime. It would take a long time to re-adjust back to normal dopamine levels, so most people won't go through this process because it will be years of finding it harder than it originally was to focus.
- brnt 3y agoIn defense of whoever said it to you: I find that writing things down goes a long way for me. Even just the act of it, without ever reading it back.
- jprd 3y ago"...you are so smart, if only you would apply yourself!"
- hirvi74 3y agoMaybe that is a true sign of intelligence? Smart enough to know it's all a waste of time and effort.
- selcuka 3y ago> So much of what you take for granted comes from your sense of smell. I briefly lost my sense of smell after having COVID, and I almost gave my kid spoiled milk, so yeah, it is actually a crucial sense.
- notjoemama 3y agoAs the non-ADHD spouse I definitely understand this but it leaves us both scratching our heads when problem solving ADHD related things. I simply can’t comprehend what it’s like and nothing that works for me works for her. Mostly I just try to focus on myself and my needs (which has limits in our relationship). I can’t offer anyone advice except sometimes loving someone else is a choice you make for you, especially when it’s inadvertently (often but not always) one sided.
- adadadadadad 3y agoThey need deadlines where they feel shame if they fail. And they will do anything to avoid having them. To provide the necessary structure and disciplining as a partner is next to impossible in a relationship of equals. They need some external force to exert pressure, which is usually a strict boss and job, but usually they will just leave their job if the income is not needed. A lot of ADHD advice promotes being more empathetic and forgiving, but ultimately they need a much stricter regime than the rest.
- troad 3y agoIs this take based on any medical evidence? I note you're casting your take as contrary to a 'lot of ADHD advice', but it's not clear to me whether you're implying that (a) a lot of popular ADHD advice is scientifically unsound and your advice is more in line with the science, or whether you're saying that (b) both the ADHD advice and the science it is based on is wrong, but your take is right. Edit: Saw some of your other posts and am reasonably confident (b) is the correct hypothesis.
- adadadadadad 3y ago"ADHD" is pseudo-science in my opinion. The impairment to life is certainly real. But the cause is unproven, and for ADHD and the medication, it must be present since birth...a brain defect...but we live in an incredibly distracting environment due to social media and all the societal change coupled with that. > For the case of ADHD specifically, this is translated to: “if an individual has attention deficit hyperactivity disorder it is because he is inattentive, disorganized and hyperactive-impulsive, and if an individual is inattentive, disorganized and hyperactive-impulsive it is because he has ADHD. > ADHD in the DSM-5-TR: What has changed and what has not - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9871920/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9871920/ -- My take on this situation is based on common sense and personal experience. I would be interested to read the science that counters this if you have it. ADHD people tend to leave things to the last minute. But the reason they start in the first place is because of the deadline's existence and strictness - the physical reaction of stress when they finally consider the consequences. If you acknowledge they leave things to the last minute and account for that by making deadlines less strict and more forgiving, then the motivating and focusing power of the deadline decreases and they can just make excuses and don't find the deadline motivating enough to start. The key is maintaining the motivational power of the deadline. The smaller the deadline, usually the less motivating power it has and the less consequences it has to missing it. It's all a delicate psychological dance, but at some point the person needs to push up against a negative emotion now and then...which our modern culture seems to want to entirely eliminate. Its the age old: why do I only have intense motivation to do the task the night before its due...next time I just need to start earlier...without realizing its the power of the night before that is the key to it all.
- havblue 3y agoI think for me I can think of several examples when my desire to avoid another broken relationship was what motivated me to do whatever it is that they care about before they get angry about it. For example I used to be bad about doing dishes and left them in the sink for too long, to the frustration of roommates. There was something in my brain at the time that dragged me to my room to be alone. I eventually forced myself to just do the work and the pathways for doing that chore formed. I "couldn't" do it at the time for some reason but I "can" now. While I can relate that it isn't simply about laziness, I think people getting angry can simply be their way of saying that they aren't your psychologist and they expect you to do your share regardless of your mental state.