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Here in Norway, for large appliances there's a 5-year statutory warranty[1], 2 years for smaller appliances etc. It covers anything that's not a wear-item brea

Here in Norway, for large appliances there's a 5-year statutory warranty[1], 2 years for smaller appliances etc. It covers anything that's not a wear-item breaking due to normal use. The shop who sold it has the burden of proof in case they want to claim it's been exposed to non-normal usage. The shop has the right to try to repair the damage, but after two times (for the same issue), you have the right to get your money back. Now surviving 5 years doesn't mean the thing will last 20. But it should at least keep the crap away. [1]: https://www.forbrukerradet.no/cause-for-complaint/ https://www.forbrukerradet.no/cause-for-complaint/

bfdm 3y ago
This sounds great! Then if course the shops exert pressure on suppliers for quality hypothetically, but I wonder this just manifests as optimizing to fail after 5 years mostly reliably.
rightbyte 3y ago
I think it is good idea to delegate QA to shops. It aligns the incentives to don't sell me crap. And I have no clue about what dishwasher is crap or not, and they do. I wonder what amount of years would be good for an absolute guarantee. Maybe something like 10 years and then 5 years of some limited sort? The guarantee probably need some odometer limit though to prevent commercial or multi housing usage on the long guarantee.
switch007 3y ago
Just to be clear, within the entire 5 year period a defect is assumed to be a manufacturing fault? If not, isn’t it easy for the seller to claim damage/wear and tear etc? We have 6 years in the UK but only in the first 6 months is a defect assumed to be a manufacturing defect, which is naturally the period with your strongest rights and when it’s easy to get a repair or replacement. After that, you need to argue quite a lot
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  depends perhaps on the part of the product? For example induction stovetops are notorious for just stopping to work seemingly at random, and thus if you call up and say hey it stopped working you might not get as much pushback.
- magicalhippo 3y ago
  Yeah, if it's not due to wear items (break pads on a bike say) and you've only used it normally, it's assumed to be a manufacturing fault and it's on the shop to prove it's not. For example if a mobile phone stops working they can't just take a look and say "oh water damage", they have to open it up and show the water stains or similar.
b112 3y ago
Quebec, Canada one-ups on this! Our warranty law essentially says a "product must work for as long as is reasonable". There is also a very easy way for citizens to apply to a commission, including past judgements, with a simple form and no cost. One can also look at past judgements. So far, the logic is that an expensive fridge should last 10 to 20 years. Same for other appliances. And if companies give the run-around, those costs are added to judgement costs too. These laws, such as Norway's and this one in Quebec, are vital. And to anyone saying they care about the environment, creating a massive appliance like this, and then making it purposefully bork early to kick a replacement, is absurd. The environmental cost of production, shipping, and then trashing such an appliance is silly, just to pad the pocket book. Note: I'm the first to say profit = awesome. Let the market decide. But LG (for example) is famous for having a compressor issue with fridges, to the extent that there have been class action lawsuits against them. And on top of that, having an inability to get any parts... so people cannot even get fridges fixed! Replacing fridges every 2 years (an example) instead of once a decade is probably incredibly bad for the environment... for no valid reason! From: https://www.opc.gouv.qc.ca/en/consumer/good-service/goods/appliance/warrantie/legal-warranties/ https://www.opc.gouv.qc.ca/en/consumer/good-service/goods/ap... What is a “reasonable lifetime”? The reasonable lifetime warranty provides that an appliance must serve for normal use for a reasonable period of time. However, the law does not specify, for example, that a stove must have a lifetime of 10 years. Why? Because several factors, such as the price paid, the contract, and the conditions of use, must be taken into account to determine the reasonable lifetime of the item. Thus, a $700 stove cannot be expected to last as long as another one with the same features, but that costs $1,500. Also, add to the above another bit of logic I've heard. If you buy a clothes washer, and use it 3x every single day, obviously that might fall into "non-consumer use" or "excessive use", thus shortening the above "reasonable lifetime". Meanwhile, if you're a bachelor that uses the washer once a week, the inverse is true! It should last longer.
- destitude 3y ago
  So do these major manufacturers sell different models in Norway and Quebec?
  - 3y ago
badpun 3y ago
I wonder if it translates into shops not selling the most unreliable crap, or selling it at a markup, compared to other countries. Or do they just amortize the cost across entire product gauntlet.
Suppafly 3y ago
>Here in Norway, for large appliances there's a 5-year statutory warranty[1], 2 years for smaller appliances etc. If a few larger markets would start having similar laws, it'd essentially fix the problem for the rest of us. I imagine currently Norway is small enough that manufacturers can just keep making crap and eat the cost of Norwegian returns.

bfdm 3y ago

This sounds great! Then if course the shops exert pressure on suppliers for quality hypothetically, but I wonder this just manifests as optimizing to fail after 5 years mostly reliably.

rightbyte 3y ago

I think it is good idea to delegate QA to shops. It aligns the incentives to don't sell me crap. And I have no clue about what dishwasher is crap or not, and they do. I wonder what amount of years would be good for an absolute guarantee. Maybe something like 10 years and then 5 years of some limited sort? The guarantee probably need some odometer limit though to prevent commercial or multi housing usage on the long guarantee.

switch007 3y ago

Just to be clear, within the entire 5 year period a defect is assumed to be a manufacturing fault? If not, isn’t it easy for the seller to claim damage/wear and tear etc? We have 6 years in the UK but only in the first 6 months is a defect assumed to be a manufacturing defect, which is naturally the period with your strongest rights and when it’s easy to get a repair or replacement. After that, you need to argue quite a lot

bryanrasmussen 3y ago
depends perhaps on the part of the product? For example induction stovetops are notorious for just stopping to work seemingly at random, and thus if you call up and say hey it stopped working you might not get as much pushback.
magicalhippo 3y ago
Yeah, if it's not due to wear items (break pads on a bike say) and you've only used it normally, it's assumed to be a manufacturing fault and it's on the shop to prove it's not. For example if a mobile phone stops working they can't just take a look and say "oh water damage", they have to open it up and show the water stains or similar.

b112 3y ago

Quebec, Canada one-ups on this! Our warranty law essentially says a "product must work for as long as is reasonable". There is also a very easy way for citizens to apply to a commission, including past judgements, with a simple form and no cost. One can also look at past judgements. So far, the logic is that an expensive fridge should last 10 to 20 years. Same for other appliances. And if companies give the run-around, those costs are added to judgement costs too. These laws, such as Norway's and this one in Quebec, are vital. And to anyone saying they care about the environment, creating a massive appliance like this, and then making it purposefully bork early to kick a replacement, is absurd. The environmental cost of production, shipping, and then trashing such an appliance is silly, just to pad the pocket book. Note: I'm the first to say profit = awesome. Let the market decide. But LG (for example) is famous for having a compressor issue with fridges, to the extent that there have been class action lawsuits against them. And on top of that, having an inability to get any parts... so people cannot even get fridges fixed! Replacing fridges every 2 years (an example) instead of once a decade is probably incredibly bad for the environment... for no valid reason! From: https://www.opc.gouv.qc.ca/en/consumer/good-service/goods/appliance/warrantie/legal-warranties/ https://www.opc.gouv.qc.ca/en/consumer/good-service/goods/ap... What is a “reasonable lifetime”? The reasonable lifetime warranty provides that an appliance must serve for normal use for a reasonable period of time. However, the law does not specify, for example, that a stove must have a lifetime of 10 years. Why? Because several factors, such as the price paid, the contract, and the conditions of use, must be taken into account to determine the reasonable lifetime of the item. Thus, a $700 stove cannot be expected to last as long as another one with the same features, but that costs $1,500. Also, add to the above another bit of logic I've heard. If you buy a clothes washer, and use it 3x every single day, obviously that might fall into "non-consumer use" or "excessive use", thus shortening the above "reasonable lifetime". Meanwhile, if you're a bachelor that uses the washer once a week, the inverse is true! It should last longer.

destitude 3y ago
So do these major manufacturers sell different models in Norway and Quebec?
- 3y ago

badpun 3y ago

I wonder if it translates into shops not selling the most unreliable crap, or selling it at a markup, compared to other countries. Or do they just amortize the cost across entire product gauntlet.

Suppafly 3y ago

>Here in Norway, for large appliances there's a 5-year statutory warranty[1], 2 years for smaller appliances etc. If a few larger markets would start having similar laws, it'd essentially fix the problem for the rest of us. I imagine currently Norway is small enough that manufacturers can just keep making crap and eat the cost of Norwegian returns.