4 ms·

You'd think ISPs would do their darnedest to make it so they don't have a way of knowing what content is flowing over their pipes, to help avoid accusations of

You'd think ISPs would do their darnedest to make it so they don't have a way of knowing what content is flowing over their pipes, to help avoid accusations of contributory infringement. My understanding is that ISP don't want to be seen as dumb pipes, despite that it would probably absolve them of a lot of responsibility and liability, because dumb pipes are effectively a commodity and thus a race to the bottom price-wise. Of course, in many US markets, they have this locked up and are a monopoly anyway. This is may be (slightly) less of a focus now, but back in the 90s, ISPs saw piled on extra services as differentiators and lock in, which is why you might have had an email address in your ISP's domain, or (in the case of cable internet) Video On Demand services tied in with internet access, or even things like content filtering (to appeal to parents). ISPs have tried a lot of different things to avoid being considered dumb pipes.

charles_f 3y ago
Ironically I would probably pay more for a dumber, but more reliable pipe. My operator changed my modem, and its configuration is "easier than ever!" (says the manual). That is, you have to use your account page on their website to change the wifi settings, and the more advanced part of it you must install an app on your phone. But you can't specify a custom DNS (which I'm sure the default router firmware would let you do). So yeah, just give me a modem, and I'll do everything myself.
- Semaphor 3y ago
  While I’m glad I can do it at all, my cable modem requires logging into their webservice, and flip a switch there to turn it from modem + router into just a modem. Still confuses me how that’s not a setting in the modem interface.
- speff 3y ago
  You can get that. It’s a business account. It costs more because that’s the actual price of a dedicated line with an uptime SLA.
  - hypercube33 3y ago
    Almost every single ISP I've worked with will let you put modem routers into "bridge" mode where it bridges the modem side to Ethernet and there's your mostly dumb modem pushing a public IP to whatever you plug in to it. Cable companies get sneaky sneaky and keep some wifi crap on for their cell phone plans though.
- hansvm 3y ago
  > you must install an app on your phone I _love_ those. When I'm trying to configure my modem, nothing gets my nether regions tingly faster than (1) Visiting the documented configuration site on the back of the modem (2) It 404s in a new and excitingly different way from every other modem you've owned (3) After visiting a nearby business with working internet, the helpful interblags populace suggests you need an app, for ... reasons (3a) At least in the old days, that was just a blatant money grab (harvest your location history and contact list, spam notifications, and so on). Now with halfway decent permissions it's less clear why they're such a-holes about it. (4) You have the foresight to install the app while internet is available. (5) Your phone is 2 years old, and the manufacturer views bare-minimum due-diligence updates as a liability and hasn't packaged the latest OS updates. Google simultaneously doesn't trust you to update your phone without somebody-other-than-them taking the liability and also highly recommends all their app developers to only target the very latest Android version. None of the modem-makeitbetter-thingamawhutts work on your phone because 2yo devices are practically fossil fuels in the making at this point. (6) You surf the interblags for an old version of the modem-makeitbetter-thingamawhutts. After searching long enough, you have a >50% chance of having found the real archive and not a virus, since Google refuses to host old APKs. (7) By sheer luck, that suffices, and your modem manufacturer doesn't have one of those "your thingamawhutt version is too old" screens in their app. (8) You go back home, where it's safe and all is well, and when you try to configure your modem you find that the app only works if it can phone home to the mothership. That's a fine thing to want to do, except the only reason you're using the blasted app is because you don't have internet at home and would like to rectify the deficiency. (9) After a bit of contemplation on the life choices that led you to this moment, you recall that your wife's phone can produce a hotspot that might remedy the immediate clusterfuck. (10) That doesn't work. Her phone has internet and working hardware, but Google has decided to ask her cell provider if she's allowed to share the hardware she purchased with nearby devices for a single crisis moment. Her cell provider says that she can do anything she would like with the device she paid for and owns, so long as they also get paid repeatedly. And so on. I'm having fun, reply if you want me to continue the saga, but IME an app is a very poor choice for configuring a modem, and that sort of bullshit has bit me in more ways than I can count. Even when you can get the damned thing to work, like OP mentions, the settings aren't anywhere near as nice as what the firmware natively supports.
- WhyNotHugo 3y ago
  There's EU-wide regulation[1] and local (Dutch) legislation stating that ISPs must allow people to use their own hardware. My ISP (KPN) complies pretty well. Their website even has clear documentation (in Dutch) with all the configuration details in case you want to set up your own fibre-optics modem, and the details on the VLAN to use for internet and telephony over it[2]. I use the ISP-supplied fibre modem plugged into an OpenWrt router. The router itself does PPPoE via VLAN. I hope you can get your ISP to follow such an example. [1]: https://fsfe.org/news/2020/news-20200601-01.en.html https://fsfe.org/news/2020/news-20200601-01.en.html [2]: https://www.kpn.com/service/eigen-apparatuur https://www.kpn.com/service/eigen-apparatuur

charles_f 3y ago

Ironically I would probably pay more for a dumber, but more reliable pipe. My operator changed my modem, and its configuration is "easier than ever!" (says the manual). That is, you have to use your account page on their website to change the wifi settings, and the more advanced part of it you must install an app on your phone. But you can't specify a custom DNS (which I'm sure the default router firmware would let you do). So yeah, just give me a modem, and I'll do everything myself.

Semaphor 3y ago
While I’m glad I can do it at all, my cable modem requires logging into their webservice, and flip a switch there to turn it from modem + router into just a modem. Still confuses me how that’s not a setting in the modem interface.
speff 3y ago
You can get that. It’s a business account. It costs more because that’s the actual price of a dedicated line with an uptime SLA.
- hypercube33 3y ago
  Almost every single ISP I've worked with will let you put modem routers into "bridge" mode where it bridges the modem side to Ethernet and there's your mostly dumb modem pushing a public IP to whatever you plug in to it. Cable companies get sneaky sneaky and keep some wifi crap on for their cell phone plans though.
hansvm 3y ago
> you must install an app on your phone I _love_ those. When I'm trying to configure my modem, nothing gets my nether regions tingly faster than (1) Visiting the documented configuration site on the back of the modem (2) It 404s in a new and excitingly different way from every other modem you've owned (3) After visiting a nearby business with working internet, the helpful interblags populace suggests you need an app, for ... reasons (3a) At least in the old days, that was just a blatant money grab (harvest your location history and contact list, spam notifications, and so on). Now with halfway decent permissions it's less clear why they're such a-holes about it. (4) You have the foresight to install the app while internet is available. (5) Your phone is 2 years old, and the manufacturer views bare-minimum due-diligence updates as a liability and hasn't packaged the latest OS updates. Google simultaneously doesn't trust you to update your phone without somebody-other-than-them taking the liability and also highly recommends all their app developers to only target the very latest Android version. None of the modem-makeitbetter-thingamawhutts work on your phone because 2yo devices are practically fossil fuels in the making at this point. (6) You surf the interblags for an old version of the modem-makeitbetter-thingamawhutts. After searching long enough, you have a >50% chance of having found the real archive and not a virus, since Google refuses to host old APKs. (7) By sheer luck, that suffices, and your modem manufacturer doesn't have one of those "your thingamawhutt version is too old" screens in their app. (8) You go back home, where it's safe and all is well, and when you try to configure your modem you find that the app only works if it can phone home to the mothership. That's a fine thing to want to do, except the only reason you're using the blasted app is because you don't have internet at home and would like to rectify the deficiency. (9) After a bit of contemplation on the life choices that led you to this moment, you recall that your wife's phone can produce a hotspot that might remedy the immediate clusterfuck. (10) That doesn't work. Her phone has internet and working hardware, but Google has decided to ask her cell provider if she's allowed to share the hardware she purchased with nearby devices for a single crisis moment. Her cell provider says that she can do anything she would like with the device she paid for and owns, so long as they also get paid repeatedly. And so on. I'm having fun, reply if you want me to continue the saga, but IME an app is a very poor choice for configuring a modem, and that sort of bullshit has bit me in more ways than I can count. Even when you can get the damned thing to work, like OP mentions, the settings aren't anywhere near as nice as what the firmware natively supports.
WhyNotHugo 3y ago
There's EU-wide regulation[1] and local (Dutch) legislation stating that ISPs must allow people to use their own hardware. My ISP (KPN) complies pretty well. Their website even has clear documentation (in Dutch) with all the configuration details in case you want to set up your own fibre-optics modem, and the details on the VLAN to use for internet and telephony over it[2]. I use the ISP-supplied fibre modem plugged into an OpenWrt router. The router itself does PPPoE via VLAN. I hope you can get your ISP to follow such an example. [1]: https://fsfe.org/news/2020/news-20200601-01.en.html https://fsfe.org/news/2020/news-20200601-01.en.html [2]: https://www.kpn.com/service/eigen-apparatuur https://www.kpn.com/service/eigen-apparatuur