4 ms·

I lived in a building that had the cost of electricity included in the rent for long-term tenants, but newer tenants had to pay for their own electricity use.

I lived in a building that had the cost of electricity included in the rent for long-term tenants, but newer tenants had to pay for their own electricity use. One person I knew in the building was using their "free" electricity to mine cryptocurrency. This was, in my opinion, not far from stealing. Was it legal? Probably? Was it ethical? Not by a long shot.

boplicity 3y ago
I'd be curious if anyone thinks if mining crypto in this case is ethical. If so, why? (It wasn't just a small amount -- there were many computers, running 24/7.)
- whatshisface 3y ago
  I wonder how running several computers would compare to other high-current draws that we would consider normal use, like using an electric oven a lot (3kw, plausibly 10 computers).
  - mysteria 3y ago
    The oven won't be on 24/7 and even if you're baking the elements cycle on and off (that's why you hear the clicking relays). You'll have to integrate it over a month and compare that to the constant consumption of a mining rig.
- samatman 3y ago
  Tenancy is a contractual relationship. It doesn't include ethical sidequests like making sure your landlord doesn't pay large electrical bills which he has agreed to pay as part of the contract. Electricity is metered, making it the landlord's responsibility to put an "up to X KW a month" clause in the contract. That electricity isn't free, the scare quotes don't change that. It's cost-included. Your opprobrium appears to hinge on the idea that this tenant would only mine crypto if the power is provided on a single-bill, all-you-can-eat basis, which I don't see as a safe assumption here. The tenant got a good deal. That happens sometimes. If landlord ever notices, he'll put another clause in the contracts going forward. Live and learn.
LoganDark 3y ago
I wonder if they are the reason newer tenants had to pay, but the landlord couldn't change their lease until the last one expires
- bombcar 3y ago
  Possible, but more likely the landlord (or new owner) realized that if you can switch to tenant-billed even with a rent drop, you have a more valuable property overall - if most of the apartments in the area are tenant-billed.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    True, rent prices are typically the most important figure for any property. Everything else comes secondary - if you're halfway down the search results because of your prices, almost nobody will even see that utilities are included.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      It's the airline ticket problem - you need to be "selling" the same as everyone else, because nobody checks. Included utilities is like included luggage.
      - Qwertious 3y ago
        "Nobody checks" because it's a seller's market. If the cost of housing dropped tenfold then I guarantee you that landlords would emphasize the value-add.
- Broken_Hippo 3y ago
  the older units might not have meters, while the newer ones could be upgraded while empty. All on one meter is common in old houses that have been divided into apartments.
ygjb 3y ago
Why was it unethical? Did the activity violate the contract?
- lolinder 3y ago
  Violating the contract would be a clear legal question, ethics is more fuzzy and down to personal interpretation but usually isn't dependent on the letters in the contract.
- matthewowen 3y ago
  It’s a residential lease, but the power use is for a non-residential purpose. So arguably yes. I wonder what a court would say. It’s not clear to me either way. As a practical matter it seems like leases with utilities included shouldn’t need to enumerate all the non-residential things you aren’t allowed to do with those utilities.
roenxi 3y ago
There is a valuable lesson there for whatever fool wrote the contract. Don't promise someone uncapped use of something like that for a fixed price. Especially not electricity.
- boplicity 3y ago
  In the province I live in, the government writes the rental contract. Individuals and businesses aren't allowed to write it.
  - mjevans 3y ago
    That sounds lovely and refreshing... Please get that into the USA so I don't have to READ 40+ pages every year!
  - callalex 3y ago
    How does that work for shared spaces and excluded areas? For example I live in the bottom half of a house, and my and the other tenants leases very clearly specify what parts of the house can by used by whom and what decks and access gates are shared etc.
- Spivak 3y ago
  The more realistic lesson is don't apply programmer logic to legal contracts where the courts will apply reasonableness tests, side with the landlord, and stick you with a many thousand dollar bill. It's like how pricing mistakes on websites are in the consumer's favor when they're small but in the sellers favor when they're large because it's unreasonable to assume someone would be selling a $450 item for $4.50.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    If an idiot landlord gets into court because a tenant took their contract literally, they're a fool who has hopefully learned a valuable albeit very expensive lesson about writing contracts.
lnxg33k1 3y ago
Omg I lived in a house with electricity included, got the contract pre-covid, as a flatshare, we were all respectful of a fair unwritten usage quota, you know, then covid passed, and since in Netherlands rent prices went to the stars, the landlord tried to evict us with bad excuses, failing (you can't evict in NL tenants of more than 1 year 8 months without good cause), then he tried to raise the rent more than 2% per year (you can't, that's why he wanted to evict us, so you can rent the same place at any arbitrary price), then he tried to raise electricity bills by removing them from being included in the rent (you can't), anyway, we got tired, I think we turned on 5 TVs per day every day all day, PC on all day every day, there was a power price crisis in NL for a while during Ukraine war, I think we bankrupted the guy, it was amazing to see him to try to squeeze any cent from us failing without recourse Landlords are the only true illegal aliens

boplicity 3y ago

I'd be curious if anyone thinks if mining crypto in this case is ethical. If so, why? (It wasn't just a small amount -- there were many computers, running 24/7.)

whatshisface 3y ago
I wonder how running several computers would compare to other high-current draws that we would consider normal use, like using an electric oven a lot (3kw, plausibly 10 computers).
- mysteria 3y ago
  The oven won't be on 24/7 and even if you're baking the elements cycle on and off (that's why you hear the clicking relays). You'll have to integrate it over a month and compare that to the constant consumption of a mining rig.
samatman 3y ago
Tenancy is a contractual relationship. It doesn't include ethical sidequests like making sure your landlord doesn't pay large electrical bills which he has agreed to pay as part of the contract. Electricity is metered, making it the landlord's responsibility to put an "up to X KW a month" clause in the contract. That electricity isn't free, the scare quotes don't change that. It's cost-included. Your opprobrium appears to hinge on the idea that this tenant would only mine crypto if the power is provided on a single-bill, all-you-can-eat basis, which I don't see as a safe assumption here. The tenant got a good deal. That happens sometimes. If landlord ever notices, he'll put another clause in the contracts going forward. Live and learn.

LoganDark 3y ago

I wonder if they are the reason newer tenants had to pay, but the landlord couldn't change their lease until the last one expires

bombcar 3y ago
Possible, but more likely the landlord (or new owner) realized that if you can switch to tenant-billed even with a rent drop, you have a more valuable property overall - if most of the apartments in the area are tenant-billed.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  True, rent prices are typically the most important figure for any property. Everything else comes secondary - if you're halfway down the search results because of your prices, almost nobody will even see that utilities are included.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    It's the airline ticket problem - you need to be "selling" the same as everyone else, because nobody checks. Included utilities is like included luggage.
    - Qwertious 3y ago
      "Nobody checks" because it's a seller's market. If the cost of housing dropped tenfold then I guarantee you that landlords would emphasize the value-add.
Broken_Hippo 3y ago
the older units might not have meters, while the newer ones could be upgraded while empty. All on one meter is common in old houses that have been divided into apartments.

ygjb 3y ago

Why was it unethical? Did the activity violate the contract?

lolinder 3y ago
Violating the contract would be a clear legal question, ethics is more fuzzy and down to personal interpretation but usually isn't dependent on the letters in the contract.
matthewowen 3y ago
It’s a residential lease, but the power use is for a non-residential purpose. So arguably yes. I wonder what a court would say. It’s not clear to me either way. As a practical matter it seems like leases with utilities included shouldn’t need to enumerate all the non-residential things you aren’t allowed to do with those utilities.

roenxi 3y ago

There is a valuable lesson there for whatever fool wrote the contract. Don't promise someone uncapped use of something like that for a fixed price. Especially not electricity.

boplicity 3y ago
In the province I live in, the government writes the rental contract. Individuals and businesses aren't allowed to write it.
- mjevans 3y ago
  That sounds lovely and refreshing... Please get that into the USA so I don't have to READ 40+ pages every year!
- callalex 3y ago
  How does that work for shared spaces and excluded areas? For example I live in the bottom half of a house, and my and the other tenants leases very clearly specify what parts of the house can by used by whom and what decks and access gates are shared etc.
Spivak 3y ago
The more realistic lesson is don't apply programmer logic to legal contracts where the courts will apply reasonableness tests, side with the landlord, and stick you with a many thousand dollar bill. It's like how pricing mistakes on websites are in the consumer's favor when they're small but in the sellers favor when they're large because it's unreasonable to assume someone would be selling a $450 item for $4.50.
- roenxi 3y ago
  If an idiot landlord gets into court because a tenant took their contract literally, they're a fool who has hopefully learned a valuable albeit very expensive lesson about writing contracts.

lnxg33k1 3y ago

Omg I lived in a house with electricity included, got the contract pre-covid, as a flatshare, we were all respectful of a fair unwritten usage quota, you know, then covid passed, and since in Netherlands rent prices went to the stars, the landlord tried to evict us with bad excuses, failing (you can't evict in NL tenants of more than 1 year 8 months without good cause), then he tried to raise the rent more than 2% per year (you can't, that's why he wanted to evict us, so you can rent the same place at any arbitrary price), then he tried to raise electricity bills by removing them from being included in the rent (you can't), anyway, we got tired, I think we turned on 5 TVs per day every day all day, PC on all day every day, there was a power price crisis in NL for a while during Ukraine war, I think we bankrupted the guy, it was amazing to see him to try to squeeze any cent from us failing without recourse Landlords are the only true illegal aliens