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Sweet, let's unabashedly support more sexism! That's what the tech industry needs. Somehow, an article describing caching of web applications manages to denig

by parfe 14y ago

Sweet, let's unabashedly support more sexism! That's what the tech industry needs. Somehow, an article describing caching of web applications manages to denigrate women, for no reason. The underrepresentation of women in tech is caused by this mindless sexism, like body-shaming women. Douche bag is a sexist insult. You're insulting your target by associating them with feminine care products. It's a direct associating between "This thing is womanly so it is bad." Even after several other stories these digs at women still get publicized!

mediocregopher 14y ago
Based on your argument, calling someone a dick would be sexist as well. I'm not arguing that the author is right to use douchebag; he was trying for entertainment value but to me it came across as unnecessary. But getting worked up because he chose the wrong insult out of the many, many insults we have relating to both male and female body parts and functions is silly. Calling someone a douchebag doesn't insult anyone else who uses a douche the same way calling someone a dick doesn't bother me everytime I use the restroom.
- parfe 14y ago
  Based on your argument, calling someone a dick would be sexist as well I reread my comment and I didn't call anyone a dick. I checked the article and it doesn't use dick either. I suppose you're after some false equivocation here which means you don't quite understand how women are being actively repelled from the tech industry. Using language hostile to a minority group is exclusionary. "Dick" as an insult in a male dominated group is not. I'm not arguing that the author is right to use douchebag; he was trying for entertainment value but to me it came across as unnecessary. But getting worked up because he chose the wrong insult out of the many, many insults we have relating to both male and female body parts and functions is silly. It's the only way to encourage positive change. I see you'd prefer to ignore it, but that just perpetuates the hostile culture that has ingrained itself over decades. He could have gone with anything (asshole for instance!) but chose to Other women and likely not intentionally, which is still no excuse. You are free to ignore the sexism just as much as you were free to ignore my comment, but for some reason you decided to step in and defend the article from my negative rated comment.
  - cube13 14y ago
    >He could have gone with anything (asshole for instance!) but chose to Other women and likely not intentionally, which is still no excuse. Which is insulting to donkeys. EDIT: The problem is that you need to pick your battles. His word selection, out of all the possible sexist terms was quite possibly the least sexist out of all the sexist terms he could have used. On the whole, considering that the sexism of the term douchebag is still an unanswered question, it's hard to find fault.
ajpiano 14y ago
Even in feminist circles, the the idea that "douchebag" is definitely sexist and denigrating is far from a settled argument: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/11/16/in-defense-of-douchebag/ http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/11/16/in-defense-... http://mooretoons.com/2008/08/20/is-douchebag-sexist/ http://mooretoons.com/2008/08/20/is-douchebag-sexist/ At the core of this argument is the idea that the "popularization" of act of douching itself was itself anti-woman, insofar as it categorised normal women's bodies and actions as unclean and shameful, and in turn advocated an unhealthy "solution" to a problem largely invented by the patriarchy. Nevertheless, I cringed ever-so-slightly when Jake gave this talk at JSConf and again when I saw it here on HN, because I knew that in recent months, among all the other salient gender issues that have been floating about, a bunch of people also "heard douchebag was sexist," and so would lodge this reservation.
- parfe 14y ago
  He's certainly not making the point that douches were invented to shame women. He's using the negative association of what douches are for. You seem to be making a "taking it back" argument when he clearly did not intend that meaning. Not using douchebag is easy! Step 1) Just Don't! Now you won't have to deal with causing strife with women in tech.
  - cube13 14y ago
    >He's using the negative association of what douches are for. You seem to be making a "taking it back" argument when he clearly did not intend that meaning. Modern medicine considers douches to be dangerous to use. Not sure how making a negative of something that is, in fact, negative is a bad thing.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
- SpiderX 14y ago
  Heaven forbid if you didn't mention that you "cringed" instead of speaking up.
ubi 14y ago
Please. Although I am not a fan of the word, calling this article unabashed support for sexism is a bit much. If you break out the pitchforks and torches at even minor infractions more moderate people will grow tried of it. There is real sexism out there, and it should be addressed. This isn't it.
Joeri 14y ago
Can we please stop with this campaign to end all grit in online conversation? We should not get rid of every expression that somebody somewhere finds hurtful. I don't think it's reasonable to say that people shouldn't use the words "douche bag".
- parfe 14y ago
  Why do you personally care so much about my buried comment that you had to come in here to defend the use of douche bag? Is saying douche bag really all that important to you? Of course it isn't. But it's part of a larger culture you have a vested interest in maintaining which is why you need to defend it. Defending douchebag is about defending the right to be carelessly and callously offensive without needing to think of others in the community.
  - craigyk 14y ago
    Or it's a freedom of speech thing, -or- its feeling some sympathy for a guy whose writing style tries to be somewhat creative, certainly not dry, and probably didn't expect, and doesn't deserve accusations of sexism, etc.
    - parfe 14y ago
      Yes, the version of free speech where you need to feel free to say whatever you want without concern for how it might impact others or make your own community hostile to entire swaths of the population. Because if I want to be a careless, self centered, unsympathetic human being then that's my right and how dare someone point out I might be harming others! And the author did expect those accusations which is why in his blog comments he links back to month old comment of his on hackernews where he defends his right to be offensive.
peterwwillis 14y ago
Profanity is intended to offend you. If you find it sexist and demeaning, it's actually doing the job it was intended for. Below is a list of alternative curse words you can use instead of 'douchebag'. Please note that the great majority of them are sexist, racist, or religious blasphemes. If you have a list of non-offensive profanity we should use, please comment and i'll add them to the list with a special note. http://pastebin.com/SKj9EiqP http://pastebin.com/SKj9EiqP Edit: pastebin'd for posterity
- parfe 14y ago
  ahole, anus, arse, arsehole, ass, ass-hat, ass-jabber, ass-pirate, assbag, assbandit, assbanger, assbite, assclown, asscock, asscracker, asses, assface, assfuck, assfucker, assgoblin, asshat, asshead, asshole, asshopper, assjacker, asslick, asslicker, assmonkey, assmunch, assmuncher, assnigger, asspirate, assrammer, assshit, assshole, asssucker, asswad, asswipe, axwound, ayir, bampot, bastard, beaner, bitch, bitchass, bitches, bitchtits, bitchy, blowjob, boffing, boiolas, bollock, bollocks, bollox, boner, boob, brotherfucker, buceta, bullshit, bumblefuck, butt-pirate, buttfucka, buttfucker, butthole, buttplug, buttwipe, cabron, cameltoe, carpetmuncher, cazzo, chesticle, chinc, chink, choad, chode, chraa, chuj, cipa, clit, clitface, clitfuck, clusterfuck, cock, cockass, cockbite, cockburger, cockface, cockfucker, cockhead, cockjockey, cockknoker, cockmaster, cockmongler, cockmongruel, cockmonkey, cockmuncher, cocknose, cocknugget, cockshit, cocksmith, cocksmoke, cocksmoker, cocksniffer, cocksucker, cockwaffle, coochie, coochy, coon, cooter, cracker, crap, cum, cumbubble, cumdumpster, cumguzzler, cumjockey, cumslut, cumtart, cunnie, cunnilingus, cunt, cuntass, cuntface, cunthole, cuntlicker, cuntrag, cuntslut, dago, damn, daygo, deggo, dego, dick, dick-sneeze, dickbag, dickbeaters, dickface, dickfuck, dickfucker, dickhead, dickhole, dickjuice, dickmilk, dickmonger, dicks, dickslap, dicksucker, dicksucking, dicktickler, dickwad, dickweasel, dickweed, dickwod, dike, dildo, dipshit, dirsa, dominatrix, doochbag, dookie, douche, douche-fag, douchebag, douchewaffle, dumass, dumbass, dumbfuck, dumbshit, dumshit, dupa, dyke, dziwka, ejakulate, ekrem, ekto, enculer, enema, faen, fag, fagbag, fagfucker, faggit, faggot, faggotcock, fagtard, fanculo, fanny, fart, fatass, feces, feg, felcher, fellatio, feltch, ficken, fitt, flamer, flikker, flippingthebird, foreskin, fotze, fuck, fuckass, fuckbag, fuckboy, fuckbrain, fuckbutt, fuckbutter, fucked, fucker, fuckersucker, fuckface, fuckhead, fuckhole, fuckin, fucking, fucknut, fucknutt, fuckoff, fucks, fuckstick, fucktard, fucktart, fuckup, fuckwad, fuckwit, fuckwitt, fudgepacker, futkretzn, gay, gayass, gaybob, gayboy, gaydo, gayfuck, gayfuckist, gaygirl, gaylord, gaytard, gaywad, god-damned, goddamn, goddamnit, gooch, gook, gringo, guido, guiena, handjob, hardon, heeb, hell, helvete, ho, hoe, homo, homodumbshit, honkey, huevon, hui, humping, injun, jackass, jackoff, jagoff, jap, jerk-off, jerkass, jerkoff, jigaboo, jism, jizz, junglebunny, kanker, kike, klootzak, knob, knulle, kooch, kootch, kraut, kuksuger, kunt, kurac, kurwa, kusi, kyke, kyrpa, lameass, lardass, lesbian, lesbo, lezzie, lipshits, mamhoon, masochist, mcfagget, merd, mibun, mick, minge, mofo, monkleigh, mothafucka, mothafuckin', motherfucker, motherfucking, mouliewop, muff, muffdiver, muie, mulkku, munging, muschi, nazi, negro, nepesaurio, nigaboo, nigga, nigger, niggers, niglet, nutsack, orifice, orospu, packie, paki, panooch, paska, pecker, peckerhead, penis, penis-breath, penisbanger, penisfucker, penispuffer, perse, picka, pierdol, pillu, pimmel, pimpis, piss, pissed, pissedoff, pissflaps, pizda, polack, polesmoker, pollock, poon, poonani, poonany, poontang, poontsee, porchmonkey, prick, pula, pule, punanny, punta, pussies, pussy, pussylicking, puta, puto, qahbeh, queef, queer, queerbait, queerhole, rautenberg, rectum, renob, retard, rimjob, ruski, s.o.b., sadist, sandnigger, schaffer, scheiss, schlampe, schlong, schmuck, screw, scrote, scrotum, semen, sharmuta, sharmute, shemale, shipal, shit, shitass, shitbag, shitbagger, shitbrains, shitbreath, shitcanned, shitcunt, shitdick, shitface, shitfaced, shithead, shithole, shithouse, shitspitter, shitstain, shitter, shittiest, shitting, shitty, shiz, shiznit, skank, skeet, skribz, skullfuck, skurwysyn, slut, slutbag, smeg, smut, snatch, son-of-a-bitch, sphencter, spic, spick, spierdalaj, splooge, spook, suckass, suka, tard, teets, teez, testicle, thundercunt, tit, titfuck, tits, tittyfuck, turd, twat, twatlips, twats, twatwaffle, unclefucker, va-j-j, vag, vagina, vajayjay, vittu, vjayjay, vulva, wank, wankjob, wetback, whore, whorebag, whoreface, wichser, woose, wop, yed, zabourah And here I thought we were professionals and not children, but apparently offending peers in a professional setting is acceptable to you. Also nice of you to cowardly admit that this stuff is inappropriate and hide it in a pastebin after you regretted posting it here. I'm going to leave your word vomit here. If you don't have the backbone to leave it in I think that just proves my point that it's inappropriate and should not be spread used in professional circles.
Mz 14y ago
Funny, I am female and it never crossed my mind that this was sexist and denigrating to women even though I view "bastard" as rooted in the denigration of women (edit: ironically, since it is almost always aimed at a man) because it suggests your mother did something wrong rather than that you did. I always think of "douchebag" as an ugly remark similar to "scum of the earth" -- in other words it calls up the idea for me that it is undesirable disgusting waste products, akin to saying something is "shitty", basically. To each his own.
ericclemmons 14y ago
To be fair, the tone of the article was that of a conversation at an event/party, in which "douchebag" would certainly be used in, especially in the typical tech demographic.
- parfe 14y ago
  That's the point. The typical tech demographic is hostile to women which is why you're mostly surrounded by men, which is why you feel these casual comments are normal. And the circle of exclusion continues.

by parfe 14y ago

mediocregopher 14y ago

Based on your argument, calling someone a dick would be sexist as well. I'm not arguing that the author is right to use douchebag; he was trying for entertainment value but to me it came across as unnecessary. But getting worked up because he chose the wrong insult out of the many, many insults we have relating to both male and female body parts and functions is silly. Calling someone a douchebag doesn't insult anyone else who uses a douche the same way calling someone a dick doesn't bother me everytime I use the restroom.

parfe 14y ago
Based on your argument, calling someone a dick would be sexist as well I reread my comment and I didn't call anyone a dick. I checked the article and it doesn't use dick either. I suppose you're after some false equivocation here which means you don't quite understand how women are being actively repelled from the tech industry. Using language hostile to a minority group is exclusionary. "Dick" as an insult in a male dominated group is not. I'm not arguing that the author is right to use douchebag; he was trying for entertainment value but to me it came across as unnecessary. But getting worked up because he chose the wrong insult out of the many, many insults we have relating to both male and female body parts and functions is silly. It's the only way to encourage positive change. I see you'd prefer to ignore it, but that just perpetuates the hostile culture that has ingrained itself over decades. He could have gone with anything (asshole for instance!) but chose to Other women and likely not intentionally, which is still no excuse. You are free to ignore the sexism just as much as you were free to ignore my comment, but for some reason you decided to step in and defend the article from my negative rated comment.
- cube13 14y ago
  >He could have gone with anything (asshole for instance!) but chose to Other women and likely not intentionally, which is still no excuse. Which is insulting to donkeys. EDIT: The problem is that you need to pick your battles. His word selection, out of all the possible sexist terms was quite possibly the least sexist out of all the sexist terms he could have used. On the whole, considering that the sexism of the term douchebag is still an unanswered question, it's hard to find fault.

ajpiano 14y ago

Even in feminist circles, the the idea that "douchebag" is definitely sexist and denigrating is far from a settled argument: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/11/16/in-defense-of-douchebag/ http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/11/16/in-defense-... http://mooretoons.com/2008/08/20/is-douchebag-sexist/ http://mooretoons.com/2008/08/20/is-douchebag-sexist/ At the core of this argument is the idea that the "popularization" of act of douching itself was itself anti-woman, insofar as it categorised normal women's bodies and actions as unclean and shameful, and in turn advocated an unhealthy "solution" to a problem largely invented by the patriarchy. Nevertheless, I cringed ever-so-slightly when Jake gave this talk at JSConf and again when I saw it here on HN, because I knew that in recent months, among all the other salient gender issues that have been floating about, a bunch of people also "heard douchebag was sexist," and so would lodge this reservation.

parfe 14y ago
He's certainly not making the point that douches were invented to shame women. He's using the negative association of what douches are for. You seem to be making a "taking it back" argument when he clearly did not intend that meaning. Not using douchebag is easy! Step 1) Just Don't! Now you won't have to deal with causing strife with women in tech.
- cube13 14y ago
  >He's using the negative association of what douches are for. You seem to be making a "taking it back" argument when he clearly did not intend that meaning. Modern medicine considers douches to be dangerous to use. Not sure how making a negative of something that is, in fact, negative is a bad thing.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
SpiderX 14y ago
Heaven forbid if you didn't mention that you "cringed" instead of speaking up.

ubi 14y ago

Please. Although I am not a fan of the word, calling this article unabashed support for sexism is a bit much. If you break out the pitchforks and torches at even minor infractions more moderate people will grow tried of it. There is real sexism out there, and it should be addressed. This isn't it.

Joeri 14y ago

Can we please stop with this campaign to end all grit in online conversation? We should not get rid of every expression that somebody somewhere finds hurtful. I don't think it's reasonable to say that people shouldn't use the words "douche bag".

parfe 14y ago
Why do you personally care so much about my buried comment that you had to come in here to defend the use of douche bag? Is saying douche bag really all that important to you? Of course it isn't. But it's part of a larger culture you have a vested interest in maintaining which is why you need to defend it. Defending douchebag is about defending the right to be carelessly and callously offensive without needing to think of others in the community.
- craigyk 14y ago
  Or it's a freedom of speech thing, -or- its feeling some sympathy for a guy whose writing style tries to be somewhat creative, certainly not dry, and probably didn't expect, and doesn't deserve accusations of sexism, etc.
  - parfe 14y ago
    Yes, the version of free speech where you need to feel free to say whatever you want without concern for how it might impact others or make your own community hostile to entire swaths of the population. Because if I want to be a careless, self centered, unsympathetic human being then that's my right and how dare someone point out I might be harming others! And the author did expect those accusations which is why in his blog comments he links back to month old comment of his on hackernews where he defends his right to be offensive.

peterwwillis 14y ago

Profanity is intended to offend you. If you find it sexist and demeaning, it's actually doing the job it was intended for. Below is a list of alternative curse words you can use instead of 'douchebag'. Please note that the great majority of them are sexist, racist, or religious blasphemes. If you have a list of non-offensive profanity we should use, please comment and i'll add them to the list with a special note. http://pastebin.com/SKj9EiqP http://pastebin.com/SKj9EiqP Edit: pastebin'd for posterity

parfe 14y ago
ahole, anus, arse, arsehole, ass, ass-hat, ass-jabber, ass-pirate, assbag, assbandit, assbanger, assbite, assclown, asscock, asscracker, asses, assface, assfuck, assfucker, assgoblin, asshat, asshead, asshole, asshopper, assjacker, asslick, asslicker, assmonkey, assmunch, assmuncher, assnigger, asspirate, assrammer, assshit, assshole, asssucker, asswad, asswipe, axwound, ayir, bampot, bastard, beaner, bitch, bitchass, bitches, bitchtits, bitchy, blowjob, boffing, boiolas, bollock, bollocks, bollox, boner, boob, brotherfucker, buceta, bullshit, bumblefuck, butt-pirate, buttfucka, buttfucker, butthole, buttplug, buttwipe, cabron, cameltoe, carpetmuncher, cazzo, chesticle, chinc, chink, choad, chode, chraa, chuj, cipa, clit, clitface, clitfuck, clusterfuck, cock, cockass, cockbite, cockburger, cockface, cockfucker, cockhead, cockjockey, cockknoker, cockmaster, cockmongler, cockmongruel, cockmonkey, cockmuncher, cocknose, cocknugget, cockshit, cocksmith, cocksmoke, cocksmoker, cocksniffer, cocksucker, cockwaffle, coochie, coochy, coon, cooter, cracker, crap, cum, cumbubble, cumdumpster, cumguzzler, cumjockey, cumslut, cumtart, cunnie, cunnilingus, cunt, cuntass, cuntface, cunthole, cuntlicker, cuntrag, cuntslut, dago, damn, daygo, deggo, dego, dick, dick-sneeze, dickbag, dickbeaters, dickface, dickfuck, dickfucker, dickhead, dickhole, dickjuice, dickmilk, dickmonger, dicks, dickslap, dicksucker, dicksucking, dicktickler, dickwad, dickweasel, dickweed, dickwod, dike, dildo, dipshit, dirsa, dominatrix, doochbag, dookie, douche, douche-fag, douchebag, douchewaffle, dumass, dumbass, dumbfuck, dumbshit, dumshit, dupa, dyke, dziwka, ejakulate, ekrem, ekto, enculer, enema, faen, fag, fagbag, fagfucker, faggit, faggot, faggotcock, fagtard, fanculo, fanny, fart, fatass, feces, feg, felcher, fellatio, feltch, ficken, fitt, flamer, flikker, flippingthebird, foreskin, fotze, fuck, fuckass, fuckbag, fuckboy, fuckbrain, fuckbutt, fuckbutter, fucked, fucker, fuckersucker, fuckface, fuckhead, fuckhole, fuckin, fucking, fucknut, fucknutt, fuckoff, fucks, fuckstick, fucktard, fucktart, fuckup, fuckwad, fuckwit, fuckwitt, fudgepacker, futkretzn, gay, gayass, gaybob, gayboy, gaydo, gayfuck, gayfuckist, gaygirl, gaylord, gaytard, gaywad, god-damned, goddamn, goddamnit, gooch, gook, gringo, guido, guiena, handjob, hardon, heeb, hell, helvete, ho, hoe, homo, homodumbshit, honkey, huevon, hui, humping, injun, jackass, jackoff, jagoff, jap, jerk-off, jerkass, jerkoff, jigaboo, jism, jizz, junglebunny, kanker, kike, klootzak, knob, knulle, kooch, kootch, kraut, kuksuger, kunt, kurac, kurwa, kusi, kyke, kyrpa, lameass, lardass, lesbian, lesbo, lezzie, lipshits, mamhoon, masochist, mcfagget, merd, mibun, mick, minge, mofo, monkleigh, mothafucka, mothafuckin', motherfucker, motherfucking, mouliewop, muff, muffdiver, muie, mulkku, munging, muschi, nazi, negro, nepesaurio, nigaboo, nigga, nigger, niggers, niglet, nutsack, orifice, orospu, packie, paki, panooch, paska, pecker, peckerhead, penis, penis-breath, penisbanger, penisfucker, penispuffer, perse, picka, pierdol, pillu, pimmel, pimpis, piss, pissed, pissedoff, pissflaps, pizda, polack, polesmoker, pollock, poon, poonani, poonany, poontang, poontsee, porchmonkey, prick, pula, pule, punanny, punta, pussies, pussy, pussylicking, puta, puto, qahbeh, queef, queer, queerbait, queerhole, rautenberg, rectum, renob, retard, rimjob, ruski, s.o.b., sadist, sandnigger, schaffer, scheiss, schlampe, schlong, schmuck, screw, scrote, scrotum, semen, sharmuta, sharmute, shemale, shipal, shit, shitass, shitbag, shitbagger, shitbrains, shitbreath, shitcanned, shitcunt, shitdick, shitface, shitfaced, shithead, shithole, shithouse, shitspitter, shitstain, shitter, shittiest, shitting, shitty, shiz, shiznit, skank, skeet, skribz, skullfuck, skurwysyn, slut, slutbag, smeg, smut, snatch, son-of-a-bitch, sphencter, spic, spick, spierdalaj, splooge, spook, suckass, suka, tard, teets, teez, testicle, thundercunt, tit, titfuck, tits, tittyfuck, turd, twat, twatlips, twats, twatwaffle, unclefucker, va-j-j, vag, vagina, vajayjay, vittu, vjayjay, vulva, wank, wankjob, wetback, whore, whorebag, whoreface, wichser, woose, wop, yed, zabourah And here I thought we were professionals and not children, but apparently offending peers in a professional setting is acceptable to you. Also nice of you to cowardly admit that this stuff is inappropriate and hide it in a pastebin after you regretted posting it here. I'm going to leave your word vomit here. If you don't have the backbone to leave it in I think that just proves my point that it's inappropriate and should not be spread used in professional circles.

Mz 14y ago

Funny, I am female and it never crossed my mind that this was sexist and denigrating to women even though I view "bastard" as rooted in the denigration of women (edit: ironically, since it is almost always aimed at a man) because it suggests your mother did something wrong rather than that you did. I always think of "douchebag" as an ugly remark similar to "scum of the earth" -- in other words it calls up the idea for me that it is undesirable disgusting waste products, akin to saying something is "shitty", basically. To each his own.

ericclemmons 14y ago

To be fair, the tone of the article was that of a conversation at an event/party, in which "douchebag" would certainly be used in, especially in the typical tech demographic.

parfe 14y ago
That's the point. The typical tech demographic is hostile to women which is why you're mostly surrounded by men, which is why you feel these casual comments are normal. And the circle of exclusion continues.