6 ms·

It is a well agreed upon concept that the people living in a society can be forced to take part in the defense of it. This is not very different from being for

by fl7305 3y ago

It is a well agreed upon concept that the people living in a society can be forced to take part in the defense of it. This is not very different from being forced to pay taxes.

Throw73747 3y ago
[flagged]
- fl7305 3y ago
  I live in Sweden with a strong history of conscription. I've never seen any serious opposition to conscription on ethical grounds. My impression is that it is the same in the other Nordic countries? I'd be surprised if there was a "huge opposition" in Switzerland or Israel, two other countries with a strong history of conscription. I also haven't seen any international human rights law against conscription?
  - Throw73747 3y ago
    > I'd be surprised if there was a "huge opposition" in Switzerland or Israel That is reason why women got voting rights in 1970 in Switzerland, they were worried about conscription. Israel has a huge orthodox religious community that opposes conscription. Army is just for liberal idiots!
    - fl7305 3y ago
      > That is reason why women got voting rights in 1970 in Switzerland, they were worried about conscription. Not sure how that translates into "a huge opposition to conscription on ethical grounds"? > Israel has a huge orthodox religious community that opposes conscription They're 13%, is that right? Is 13% "huge"? And do they oppose it for everyone on ethical grounds? Or just for themselves, while they'll happily let the rest take care of the national defense using conscription?
      - Throw73747 3y ago
        I am not going to talk about Switzerland. Orthodox in Israel are excluded from military service. But there are settlers... Ethical my bum.. also there are like 20% Arabs... You should really spend some time in there, crazy country.
        fl7305 3y ago
        > Orthodox in Israel are excluded from military service. I was curious about Israel, so I did some quick Googling: The orthodox in Israel are not excluded from forced military service. Their service can be postponed while they are in religious school. It is also shortened. They are not against conscription on ethical grounds. They just think that religious studies are a lot more important. They also do not want to mix with the general population since they do not like their way of living. So if they were forced into conscription where they could do a lot of religious studying together with their own people, they wouldn't have much against it. Did I get anything wrong here? > You should really spend some time in there, crazy country. That's a ringing endorsement if I ever saw one. Have you considered becoming a travel agent? ;)
        Throw73747 3y ago
        They were excluded until very recently. I think details are not relevant, but look how long they do studies, dodging ratios, where they serve, extremism, tax payments... It really does not belong here. My point is that Israel is really not good example of a country with "happy conscription". Israel is actually good pace to visit now. Cheaper than usually, far less tourist, stay on coast (Haifa and Tel Aviv) avoid religious sites. I am going there in October for two weeks.
        fl7305 3y ago
        > They were excluded until very recently. Not according to my research. Their service was delayed and shortened, but in general it was not excluded altogether. And again, they are not against conscription on ethical grounds. > not good example of a country with "happy conscription" I do not claim that conscripts are happy while they are forced to serve. My claim is that among the top 10 happiest countries, many of them have conscription. So conscription does not equal an unhappy society. Also, while we complained to no end during our conscription time in the army, most older swedes who served look back at their forced military service with a lot of positive feelings. Younger people who did not serve roll their eyes when the older guys start reminiscing about their army time. You can see them thinking "shut up already" :) Of course there are people with your level of dislike of conscription, but I haven't met very many of them in Sweden. > Israel is actually good pace to visit now. Oh, I thought you were kidding. It has a lot of historic sites I'd like to see, but it'd be nice if the whole region was a lot calmer before I start thinking about going there. Not holding my breath on that one...
margalabargala 3y ago
It is also well known that a defense force composed of volunteers performs better than one composed of conscripts, and it is well known that performing conscription tends to make the populace unhappy.
- fl7305 3y ago
  I'm Swedish. I did 12 months of conscription at a time when everyone had to do it. The happiest country on the planet is Finland, which is even more gung-ho about conscription than Sweden. The nordic countries, Israel, and Switzerland all have conscription and are also all in the top 10 happiest countries. (Side note: I think it'd be dangerous to abolish conscription in Finland. The Finns might get so over-happy that they start talking to strangers at bus stops and doing other things signifying that the end is near.) As far as the quality of the soldiers, I will give you that there are many countries where poorly trained conscripts are of very low quality. But as far as the nordic countries go, I'd say that the conscript soldiers in general are motivated and perform well in combat. Swedish UN troops composed of conscript soldiers who later volunteer for a 6 month UN mission have performed very well compared to "professional" UN troops from other countries. For instance, read up on "shootbat" (BA01) in Bosnia 1993-1994. I have heard many stories from Swedish ex-UN soldiers about how the Swedish battalions can solve pretty much any problem in the field since they are composed of people who work as auto mechanics, heavy equipment operators, electricians, civil engineers, computer programmers, etc in their civilian lives. At the same time, the "professional" soldiers from other countries get stuck as soon as there's a problem just a little bit outside of their army training.
  - Throw73747 3y ago
    Sure Uncle Tom! If it's so great, why they have to force people into it? I was conscripted, I fired 20 bullets over 12 months, I get more practise over weekend of paintball! Rest was just bullying, cleaning toilets and scraping potatoes. They would not even let me drive a truck, because I was too "unreliable"!
    - fl7305 3y ago
mistermann 3y ago
How well was this agreed upon, what form was the agreement in, and when was the last time it was conducted, because I've never been asked about it even once. This mystery applies to most everything, not just conscription.
- fl7305 3y ago
  It is agreed upon in every election. In Sweden, I've never seen any serious opposition to conscription on ethical grounds. My impression is that it is the same in the other nordic countries.
  - mistermann 3y ago
    If I am offered 5 different bundles of thousands of items, and my only choice is one of the 5 bundles or no choice, am I agreeing to each item, or does it only appear like I am agreeing?
    - fl7305 3y ago
      > am I agreeing to each item No, not for 100% of the voters. But you can still say that the issue is "well agreed upon". If there was a "huge opposition to conscription because it is slavery", then one or more of the political parties in Sweden would be opposed to it. And those parties would get a majority of the votes if people thought that the issue was the most important one. Instead there is no political party against conscription in Sweden. Not even the left party or the green party, which really surprised me since they are normally against that sort of thing. There is also no political debate about conscription in Sweden on ethical grounds. Compare this with the monarchy and the king in Sweden. Here, there is definitely a vocal opposition, and several large parties are against it. It is far less "well agreed upon" than conscription, and it is harder to say that people voting for a party that is not against the monarchy actually agree with that.
      - mistermann 3y ago
        >No, not for 100% of the voters. What about 5%? >But you can still say that the issue is "well agreed upon". You can say whatever you like, but whether what one says is true is an important but often ~uncomfortable detail. > If there was a "huge opposition to conscription because it is slavery", then one or more of the political parties in Sweden would be opposed to it. Reality necessarily resolves this way, without exception? And, this is knowable, and known, necessarily? Incorrect belief is not possible here? > There is also no political debate about conscription in Sweden on ethical grounds. Are you describing your knowledge of mainstream debate, or the fact of the matter of all debate in existence, however "serious" it appears (aka: is)? > Compare this with the monarchy and the king in Sweden. The thing itself, or some memetic cultural narrative of it, like what one reads in the newspaper or on internet forums? If the former: how? If the latter: why? To what end?

by fl7305 3y ago

It is a well agreed upon concept that the people living in a society can be forced to take part in the defense of it. This is not very different from being forced to pay taxes.

Throw73747 3y ago

[flagged]

fl7305 3y ago
I live in Sweden with a strong history of conscription. I've never seen any serious opposition to conscription on ethical grounds. My impression is that it is the same in the other Nordic countries? I'd be surprised if there was a "huge opposition" in Switzerland or Israel, two other countries with a strong history of conscription. I also haven't seen any international human rights law against conscription?
- Throw73747 3y ago
  > I'd be surprised if there was a "huge opposition" in Switzerland or Israel That is reason why women got voting rights in 1970 in Switzerland, they were worried about conscription. Israel has a huge orthodox religious community that opposes conscription. Army is just for liberal idiots!
  - fl7305 3y ago
    > That is reason why women got voting rights in 1970 in Switzerland, they were worried about conscription. Not sure how that translates into "a huge opposition to conscription on ethical grounds"? > Israel has a huge orthodox religious community that opposes conscription They're 13%, is that right? Is 13% "huge"? And do they oppose it for everyone on ethical grounds? Or just for themselves, while they'll happily let the rest take care of the national defense using conscription?
    - Throw73747 3y ago
      I am not going to talk about Switzerland. Orthodox in Israel are excluded from military service. But there are settlers... Ethical my bum.. also there are like 20% Arabs... You should really spend some time in there, crazy country.
      - fl7305 3y ago
        > Orthodox in Israel are excluded from military service. I was curious about Israel, so I did some quick Googling: The orthodox in Israel are not excluded from forced military service. Their service can be postponed while they are in religious school. It is also shortened. They are not against conscription on ethical grounds. They just think that religious studies are a lot more important. They also do not want to mix with the general population since they do not like their way of living. So if they were forced into conscription where they could do a lot of religious studying together with their own people, they wouldn't have much against it. Did I get anything wrong here? > You should really spend some time in there, crazy country. That's a ringing endorsement if I ever saw one. Have you considered becoming a travel agent? ;)
        Throw73747 3y ago
        They were excluded until very recently. I think details are not relevant, but look how long they do studies, dodging ratios, where they serve, extremism, tax payments... It really does not belong here. My point is that Israel is really not good example of a country with "happy conscription". Israel is actually good pace to visit now. Cheaper than usually, far less tourist, stay on coast (Haifa and Tel Aviv) avoid religious sites. I am going there in October for two weeks.
        fl7305 3y ago
        > They were excluded until very recently. Not according to my research. Their service was delayed and shortened, but in general it was not excluded altogether. And again, they are not against conscription on ethical grounds. > not good example of a country with "happy conscription" I do not claim that conscripts are happy while they are forced to serve. My claim is that among the top 10 happiest countries, many of them have conscription. So conscription does not equal an unhappy society. Also, while we complained to no end during our conscription time in the army, most older swedes who served look back at their forced military service with a lot of positive feelings. Younger people who did not serve roll their eyes when the older guys start reminiscing about their army time. You can see them thinking "shut up already" :) Of course there are people with your level of dislike of conscription, but I haven't met very many of them in Sweden. > Israel is actually good pace to visit now. Oh, I thought you were kidding. It has a lot of historic sites I'd like to see, but it'd be nice if the whole region was a lot calmer before I start thinking about going there. Not holding my breath on that one...

margalabargala 3y ago

It is also well known that a defense force composed of volunteers performs better than one composed of conscripts, and it is well known that performing conscription tends to make the populace unhappy.

fl7305 3y ago
I'm Swedish. I did 12 months of conscription at a time when everyone had to do it. The happiest country on the planet is Finland, which is even more gung-ho about conscription than Sweden. The nordic countries, Israel, and Switzerland all have conscription and are also all in the top 10 happiest countries. (Side note: I think it'd be dangerous to abolish conscription in Finland. The Finns might get so over-happy that they start talking to strangers at bus stops and doing other things signifying that the end is near.) As far as the quality of the soldiers, I will give you that there are many countries where poorly trained conscripts are of very low quality. But as far as the nordic countries go, I'd say that the conscript soldiers in general are motivated and perform well in combat. Swedish UN troops composed of conscript soldiers who later volunteer for a 6 month UN mission have performed very well compared to "professional" UN troops from other countries. For instance, read up on "shootbat" (BA01) in Bosnia 1993-1994. I have heard many stories from Swedish ex-UN soldiers about how the Swedish battalions can solve pretty much any problem in the field since they are composed of people who work as auto mechanics, heavy equipment operators, electricians, civil engineers, computer programmers, etc in their civilian lives. At the same time, the "professional" soldiers from other countries get stuck as soon as there's a problem just a little bit outside of their army training.
- Throw73747 3y ago
  Sure Uncle Tom! If it's so great, why they have to force people into it? I was conscripted, I fired 20 bullets over 12 months, I get more practise over weekend of paintball! Rest was just bullying, cleaning toilets and scraping potatoes. They would not even let me drive a truck, because I was too "unreliable"!
  - fl7305 3y ago

mistermann 3y ago

How well was this agreed upon, what form was the agreement in, and when was the last time it was conducted, because I've never been asked about it even once. This mystery applies to most everything, not just conscription.

fl7305 3y ago
It is agreed upon in every election. In Sweden, I've never seen any serious opposition to conscription on ethical grounds. My impression is that it is the same in the other nordic countries.
- mistermann 3y ago
  If I am offered 5 different bundles of thousands of items, and my only choice is one of the 5 bundles or no choice, am I agreeing to each item, or does it only appear like I am agreeing?
  - fl7305 3y ago
    > am I agreeing to each item No, not for 100% of the voters. But you can still say that the issue is "well agreed upon". If there was a "huge opposition to conscription because it is slavery", then one or more of the political parties in Sweden would be opposed to it. And those parties would get a majority of the votes if people thought that the issue was the most important one. Instead there is no political party against conscription in Sweden. Not even the left party or the green party, which really surprised me since they are normally against that sort of thing. There is also no political debate about conscription in Sweden on ethical grounds. Compare this with the monarchy and the king in Sweden. Here, there is definitely a vocal opposition, and several large parties are against it. It is far less "well agreed upon" than conscription, and it is harder to say that people voting for a party that is not against the monarchy actually agree with that.
    - mistermann 3y ago
      >No, not for 100% of the voters. What about 5%? >But you can still say that the issue is "well agreed upon". You can say whatever you like, but whether what one says is true is an important but often ~uncomfortable detail. > If there was a "huge opposition to conscription because it is slavery", then one or more of the political parties in Sweden would be opposed to it. Reality necessarily resolves this way, without exception? And, this is knowable, and known, necessarily? Incorrect belief is not possible here? > There is also no political debate about conscription in Sweden on ethical grounds. Are you describing your knowledge of mainstream debate, or the fact of the matter of all debate in existence, however "serious" it appears (aka: is)? > Compare this with the monarchy and the king in Sweden. The thing itself, or some memetic cultural narrative of it, like what one reads in the newspaper or on internet forums? If the former: how? If the latter: why? To what end?