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If it is attacking American institutions and making it hard for an elite institution like Harvard to adequately address an extreme anti-semitism problem, it is

If it is attacking American institutions and making it hard for an elite institution like Harvard to adequately address an extreme anti-semitism problem, it is anti-American. If it makes people feel worse about living in the United States and tries to impose any concept of original sin onto an American citizen, as is the case with a lot of "woke" propaganda, it is anti-American.

archagon 3y ago
In my opinion, anyone who uses the term "woke propaganda" unironically is anti-American.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  It's been interesting to watch as "woke" morphed from a word uttered with pride to an insult. I can't think of another word whose valence has changed so quickly and unambiguously. It would have been less surprising if the out-group started using it as an insult and the in-group still claimed it as a badge of honor. I wouldn't have guessed that the in-group would have abandoned it so readily.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    > I can't think of another word whose valence has changed so quickly and unambiguously. maga
    - gnicholas 3y ago
      This acronym was always pro-Trump and has been simultaneously used pridefully and as an insult. I'm not aware of any pro-Trump folks attempting to dodge the MAGA label (which folks who previously claimed the mantel of "woke" now do). This is what I view as the difference — no one says they're "woke" anymore, even if they have the exact same views as before.
  - klyrs 3y ago
    > I wouldn't have guessed that the in-group would have abandoned it so readily. You never understood the meaning of the word, then. Woke is a synonym for "enlightenment." Indeed, the notions of wokeness echo an earlier philosophical revolution we continue to call the Age of Enlightenment. Who, with a serious face, will claim to be enlightened? According to the Buddhism I studied, there was never a surer method to identify a fool. Wokeness was never worn as a serious label. Wokeness may be acknowledged, be that applied to a person or a concept. The only time I've heard anybody self-proclaim wokeness is literally in self-mockery. He's woke, she's woke, that's woke, stay woke, but never I'm woke. So I'd make one edit to your first sentence: it was not uttered with pride, it was uttered with respect. And people still do that today. So there was nothing to abandon. Nobody identified that way. And now wokeness is now a boogeyman. It means whatever anybody wants it to mean. Nevermind that this fight has been raging since the 17th century, but it's got a new name now and hey you can sell fear with that.
    - oldnetguy 3y ago
      > Woke is a synonym for "enlightenment." This made laugh.
      - klyrs 3y ago
        Sweet dreams, little prince.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > It's been interesting to watch as "woke" morphed from a word uttered with pride to an insult. I can't think of another word whose valence has changed so quickly and unambiguously. Don't be surprised: It's standard conservative messaging tactics going back years. Take something valuable to their enemies an demonize it through endless repetition. The Democrats and liberals have tried to avoid every fight, and so it works every time. I'm not exaggerating to say that I predicted 'woke' would be demonized too. IIRC, someone recently published conversations among some conservative groups where they planned their messaging around it (not an unusual tactic) and specifically what would be effective.
    - gnicholas 3y ago
      > It's standard conservative messaging tactics going back years What are some other examples? "Politically correct" comes to mind, but IIRC that didn't turn nearly as fast, or as definitively.
      - archagon 3y ago
        "Fake news," I would assume.
  - eli_gottlieb 3y ago
    >It's been interesting to watch as "woke" morphed from a word uttered with pride to an insult. I never heard it uttered with pride. I saw it graffiti'd on walls.
wolverine876 3y ago
Criticizing American institutions is about as American as it can get; that freedom and that behavior is almost the whole point of democracy. Should we all just go along with what some other Americans tell us? When conservatives attack liberal institutions, like they are now attacking universities, is that un-American? > making it hard for an elite institution like Harvard to adequately address an extreme anti-semitism problem It is just one partisan side's claim there is some extreme problem, and that Harvard is not addressing it. I haven't heard the claim that someone is preventing them - the conservatives have been blaming Harvard. (I'll note that the conservatives couldn't give rats ass about anti-semitism; they heavily trafficked in it for years, many prominently. They are only trying to attack an 'American institution', higher education.) > If it makes people feel worse about living in the United States and tries to impose any concept of original sin onto an American citizen, as is the case with a lot of "woke" propaganda, it is anti-American. It's un-American to make people feel bad? What about the people you are making feel bad? If the original sin is true, should we hide from the truth? We can't admit our mistakes?

archagon 3y ago

In my opinion, anyone who uses the term "woke propaganda" unironically is anti-American.

gnicholas 3y ago
It's been interesting to watch as "woke" morphed from a word uttered with pride to an insult. I can't think of another word whose valence has changed so quickly and unambiguously. It would have been less surprising if the out-group started using it as an insult and the in-group still claimed it as a badge of honor. I wouldn't have guessed that the in-group would have abandoned it so readily.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  > I can't think of another word whose valence has changed so quickly and unambiguously. maga
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    This acronym was always pro-Trump and has been simultaneously used pridefully and as an insult. I'm not aware of any pro-Trump folks attempting to dodge the MAGA label (which folks who previously claimed the mantel of "woke" now do). This is what I view as the difference — no one says they're "woke" anymore, even if they have the exact same views as before.
- klyrs 3y ago
  > I wouldn't have guessed that the in-group would have abandoned it so readily. You never understood the meaning of the word, then. Woke is a synonym for "enlightenment." Indeed, the notions of wokeness echo an earlier philosophical revolution we continue to call the Age of Enlightenment. Who, with a serious face, will claim to be enlightened? According to the Buddhism I studied, there was never a surer method to identify a fool. Wokeness was never worn as a serious label. Wokeness may be acknowledged, be that applied to a person or a concept. The only time I've heard anybody self-proclaim wokeness is literally in self-mockery. He's woke, she's woke, that's woke, stay woke, but never I'm woke. So I'd make one edit to your first sentence: it was not uttered with pride, it was uttered with respect. And people still do that today. So there was nothing to abandon. Nobody identified that way. And now wokeness is now a boogeyman. It means whatever anybody wants it to mean. Nevermind that this fight has been raging since the 17th century, but it's got a new name now and hey you can sell fear with that.
  - oldnetguy 3y ago
    > Woke is a synonym for "enlightenment." This made laugh.
    - klyrs 3y ago
      Sweet dreams, little prince.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > It's been interesting to watch as "woke" morphed from a word uttered with pride to an insult. I can't think of another word whose valence has changed so quickly and unambiguously. Don't be surprised: It's standard conservative messaging tactics going back years. Take something valuable to their enemies an demonize it through endless repetition. The Democrats and liberals have tried to avoid every fight, and so it works every time. I'm not exaggerating to say that I predicted 'woke' would be demonized too. IIRC, someone recently published conversations among some conservative groups where they planned their messaging around it (not an unusual tactic) and specifically what would be effective.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    > It's standard conservative messaging tactics going back years What are some other examples? "Politically correct" comes to mind, but IIRC that didn't turn nearly as fast, or as definitively.
    - archagon 3y ago
      "Fake news," I would assume.
- eli_gottlieb 3y ago
  >It's been interesting to watch as "woke" morphed from a word uttered with pride to an insult. I never heard it uttered with pride. I saw it graffiti'd on walls.

wolverine876 3y ago

Criticizing American institutions is about as American as it can get; that freedom and that behavior is almost the whole point of democracy. Should we all just go along with what some other Americans tell us? When conservatives attack liberal institutions, like they are now attacking universities, is that un-American? > making it hard for an elite institution like Harvard to adequately address an extreme anti-semitism problem It is just one partisan side's claim there is some extreme problem, and that Harvard is not addressing it. I haven't heard the claim that someone is preventing them - the conservatives have been blaming Harvard. (I'll note that the conservatives couldn't give rats ass about anti-semitism; they heavily trafficked in it for years, many prominently. They are only trying to attack an 'American institution', higher education.) > If it makes people feel worse about living in the United States and tries to impose any concept of original sin onto an American citizen, as is the case with a lot of "woke" propaganda, it is anti-American. It's un-American to make people feel bad? What about the people you are making feel bad? If the original sin is true, should we hide from the truth? We can't admit our mistakes?