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So basically copying telegram way. That being said, why does Signal still require a phone number in the first place? Exactly, because when needed, it will be us

So basically copying telegram way. That being said, why does Signal still require a phone number in the first place? Exactly, because when needed, it will be used to be linked back to your real identity, it has nothing to do with spam or anything, Signal isn’t a social media with public posts and what not, it is a messaging app.

unethical_ban 3y ago
It is a way to increase usability for casual users, decrease spam by requiring some other source of identity tied to real existence (emails are easier to generate than throwaway phone numbers). It may decrease privacy philosophically, but it isn't nefarious. If you want a private messaging platform with zero prerequisite identity, use Briar.
- tamimio 3y ago
  > It is a way to increase usability for casual users You can keep it as an option. > decrease spam by requiring some other source Phone numbers never been a good way to counter spam, just look at social media, you can buy phone numbers in bulk these days, not to mention spam might work in social media because there’s the concept of “public space” where everyone shares and talk, so it does make sense for some bad actors to spam or even trying to influence others, that’s not the case in messaging app, because first I need to know your “unknown” username that I can’t see it elsewhere, and second, the efforts are worthy for such unsolicited message, which in case it was, you can get a burner to send it. The point is requiring a phone number to counter spam doesn’t work, and it doesn’t make sense either for messaging apps. > If you want a private messaging platform with zero prerequisite identity, use Briar. Well, personally I don’t use Signal, never will in its current state, but they always try to promote it as privacy messaging app while still relying on a broken system known as GSM.
  - usrusr 3y ago
    A lot of spammers opt for media that does not require the effort of obtaining a phone number. It's the bike lock model: no bike lock is ever safe, but as long as your bike is parked next to bikes with a weaker lock, you have a pretty good chance of not having to walk home on foot.
- CuriousCosmic 3y ago
  > It may decrease privacy philosophically, but it isn't nefarious. It doesn't decrease privacy. It decreases anonymity which is distinctly different. > If you want a private messaging platform with zero prerequisite identity, use Briar. Or Session which is a fork of Signal that runs it's own network using standard PKI instead of a phone number for identities and a decentralised message delivery/onion routing system.
- smallerfish 3y ago
  > It is a way to increase usability for casual users, decrease spam by requiring some other source of identity tied to real existence (emails are easier to generate than throwaway phone numbers). You either end up discriminating against users who have to use VOIP for whatever reasons (and there are legitimate reasons) by blocking VOIP numbers, or your barrier to entry for spammers is almost negligible. It's not a good system. If you want to prove that users are humans, use a webcam and an id, or delegate the task to some bigcorp who already has a similar system. If that's too much for you in terms of privacy, you shouldn't be attempting to prove that users are humans in the first place. Maybe you should prevent spam via product driven solutions, e.g. whitelisted contacts.
- novok 3y ago
  For the people who really don't want a phone number, make them pay via mobilecoin. Lets them raise money and prevent spam.
callalex 3y ago
>it has nothing to do with spam or anything What experience do you have to have gained this confident knowledge?
- verisimi 3y ago
  Would they be able to resist a secret court order?
  - stavros 3y ago
    An order to what? Hand over a random phone number?
    - anigbrowl 3y ago
      As if you can't get a whole lot of information on most people with just their phone number. The number of people whose Signal ID is built off a burner phone ad no longer traceable back to them is miniscule.
      - growse 3y ago
        > As if you can't get a whole lot of information on most people with just their phone number. The number of people whose Signal ID is built off a burner phone ad no longer traceable back to them is miniscule. Yes, but what are you going to do with this information? All you know is how long they've been a signal user and when they last connected.
        heavyset_go 3y ago
        You correlate that with the chat logs you've secured from a phone that's been confiscated or subpoenaed. The metadata itself is just as valuable as the content of the messages. If you want to prove that criminal A was in correspondence with criminal B, that's how you do it. As per this comment, they store much more than just the last connection time[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39445791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39445791
Vinnl 3y ago
> why does Signal still require a phone number in the first place? From https://signal.org/blog/signal-is-expensive/ https://signal.org/blog/signal-is-expensive/ > We use third-party services to send a registration code via SMS or voice call in order to verify that the person in possession of a given phone number actually intended to sign up for a Signal account. This is a critical step in helping to prevent spam accounts from signing up for the service and rendering it completely unusable—a non-trivial problem for any popular messaging app. I'm not sure why you need to assume that it will be linked back to your real identity; I haven't seen anything that indicates any motivation to do something like that. I'm all for being cautious, but being overly cynical can lead to letting perfect being the enemy of the good.
- tamimio 3y ago
  For the spam part, I commented below how’s that doesn’t work and it doesn’t even make sense for a messaging app. > I'm not sure why you need to assume that it will be linked back to your real identity; I’m not assuming, only North America (edit: and some European countries) doesn’t require an ID for a phone number (1), and even in here, you would use it in other services that are linked to your real ID like banks or paying the phone bill online. The concept simply boils down to as soon as you find an account’s phone number, it’s a game over for that said privacy. (1) https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/sim-card-registration-laws/ https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/sim-card-regist...
  - pyramid301 3y ago
    [dead]
  - hnarn 3y ago
    > The concept simply boils down to as soon as you find an account’s phone number, it’s a game over for that said privacy You completely misunderstand what kind of privacy Signal aims to achieve. Signal protects you from eavesdropping and data hoarding, two major privacy issues with solutions like Facebook Messenger for example. They do not and have never claimed to offer a service where “privacy” means nobody knows who anyone is, it isn’t Tor and I wouldn’t want it to be. If you don’t like the goals and design choices of Signal, just use another service. There are benefits of the choices they’ve made, namely ensuring that most users of the service are “real people”, which I think is great. It’s not a social network, it’s a messaging app between friends that solves issues presented by alternatives like SMS or Instagram; that’s it.
windexh8er 3y ago
Definitely not a copy of Telegram. I'm not actually sure what the draw is with Telegram but given it's origins I'll choose Signal over Telegram. If you read the thread the linkage between a phone number and a Signal account cuts down on fake accounts significantly - which has nothing to do with "social media" but it does have a lot to do with SPAM as you've incorrectly stated. I understand why it's not ideal, but there are tradeoffs in both directions. It's unlikely that usernames are going to expose users more than they currently are if they're already using Signal. And it's also unlikely that this new feature changes much, but I welcome the ability to prevent users from associating my known number to my Signal account. In this way the security model has improved considerably.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  Telegram's privacy is questionable but its UI is absolutely outstanding.
  - xk_id 3y ago
    I know right? Telegram is one of my favourite iPhone apps, hands down, purely on the basis of the interface. It’s also incredibly performant, which means a lot considering I use a 6S model from 2015. In comparison, the last discord update became literally unusable, for performance reasons (it was so bad, i ended up deleting it).
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  Telegram has channels and groups that work in a weird but very useful way. That's mostly the draw for me, not really the private messaging. Though the UX is just amazing, even for private messages. Everything is just super neat and where you expect it to be. I'd still probably not use it if it wasn't for how channels work
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- mattl 3y ago
  Does Telegram still have a feature where you can see who nearby you is using Telegram? That to me is a reason alone to not install it.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
Telegram? Neither ICQ (1996), nor Skype (2003) required phone numbers. That's a later trend, part of general enshittification of internet.
- mattl 3y ago
  How much spam did you get on ICQ? I remember getting a lot.
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
    I dont remember getting spam, but I ditched it pretty early on in favor of Microsoft messenger (RIP).
tgsovlerkhgsel 3y ago
Because the social graph sitting in people's phone address books isn't easily replicated, and using phone numbers is basically the only chance of overcoming the chicken-and-egg problem with network effect.
heavyset_go 3y ago
> why does Signal still require a phone number in the first place? Governments won't go on a crusade against Signal as long as they keep records of who is using their platform to commit crimes. Signal won't commit to being an anonymous platform likely for that reason.
- leotravis10 3y ago
  Yep, plus I (and many others) feel the US government is satisifed with the information that Signal provide to the government and it has to follow juristictions such as NSLs: https://dessalines.github.io/essays/why_not_signal.html#a-single-centralized-us-based-service https://dessalines.github.io/essays/why_not_signal.html#a-si...
sneak 3y ago
You can use burner voip numbers, it doesn’t need to be a gsm sim in your phone or tied to your identity in any way.

unethical_ban 3y ago

It is a way to increase usability for casual users, decrease spam by requiring some other source of identity tied to real existence (emails are easier to generate than throwaway phone numbers). It may decrease privacy philosophically, but it isn't nefarious. If you want a private messaging platform with zero prerequisite identity, use Briar.

tamimio 3y ago
> It is a way to increase usability for casual users You can keep it as an option. > decrease spam by requiring some other source Phone numbers never been a good way to counter spam, just look at social media, you can buy phone numbers in bulk these days, not to mention spam might work in social media because there’s the concept of “public space” where everyone shares and talk, so it does make sense for some bad actors to spam or even trying to influence others, that’s not the case in messaging app, because first I need to know your “unknown” username that I can’t see it elsewhere, and second, the efforts are worthy for such unsolicited message, which in case it was, you can get a burner to send it. The point is requiring a phone number to counter spam doesn’t work, and it doesn’t make sense either for messaging apps. > If you want a private messaging platform with zero prerequisite identity, use Briar. Well, personally I don’t use Signal, never will in its current state, but they always try to promote it as privacy messaging app while still relying on a broken system known as GSM.
- usrusr 3y ago
  A lot of spammers opt for media that does not require the effort of obtaining a phone number. It's the bike lock model: no bike lock is ever safe, but as long as your bike is parked next to bikes with a weaker lock, you have a pretty good chance of not having to walk home on foot.
CuriousCosmic 3y ago
> It may decrease privacy philosophically, but it isn't nefarious. It doesn't decrease privacy. It decreases anonymity which is distinctly different. > If you want a private messaging platform with zero prerequisite identity, use Briar. Or Session which is a fork of Signal that runs it's own network using standard PKI instead of a phone number for identities and a decentralised message delivery/onion routing system.
smallerfish 3y ago
> It is a way to increase usability for casual users, decrease spam by requiring some other source of identity tied to real existence (emails are easier to generate than throwaway phone numbers). You either end up discriminating against users who have to use VOIP for whatever reasons (and there are legitimate reasons) by blocking VOIP numbers, or your barrier to entry for spammers is almost negligible. It's not a good system. If you want to prove that users are humans, use a webcam and an id, or delegate the task to some bigcorp who already has a similar system. If that's too much for you in terms of privacy, you shouldn't be attempting to prove that users are humans in the first place. Maybe you should prevent spam via product driven solutions, e.g. whitelisted contacts.
novok 3y ago
For the people who really don't want a phone number, make them pay via mobilecoin. Lets them raise money and prevent spam.

callalex 3y ago

>it has nothing to do with spam or anything What experience do you have to have gained this confident knowledge?

verisimi 3y ago
Would they be able to resist a secret court order?
- stavros 3y ago
  An order to what? Hand over a random phone number?
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    As if you can't get a whole lot of information on most people with just their phone number. The number of people whose Signal ID is built off a burner phone ad no longer traceable back to them is miniscule.
    - growse 3y ago
      > As if you can't get a whole lot of information on most people with just their phone number. The number of people whose Signal ID is built off a burner phone ad no longer traceable back to them is miniscule. Yes, but what are you going to do with this information? All you know is how long they've been a signal user and when they last connected.
      - heavyset_go 3y ago
        You correlate that with the chat logs you've secured from a phone that's been confiscated or subpoenaed. The metadata itself is just as valuable as the content of the messages. If you want to prove that criminal A was in correspondence with criminal B, that's how you do it. As per this comment, they store much more than just the last connection time[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39445791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39445791

Vinnl 3y ago

> why does Signal still require a phone number in the first place? From https://signal.org/blog/signal-is-expensive/ https://signal.org/blog/signal-is-expensive/ > We use third-party services to send a registration code via SMS or voice call in order to verify that the person in possession of a given phone number actually intended to sign up for a Signal account. This is a critical step in helping to prevent spam accounts from signing up for the service and rendering it completely unusable—a non-trivial problem for any popular messaging app. I'm not sure why you need to assume that it will be linked back to your real identity; I haven't seen anything that indicates any motivation to do something like that. I'm all for being cautious, but being overly cynical can lead to letting perfect being the enemy of the good.

tamimio 3y ago
For the spam part, I commented below how’s that doesn’t work and it doesn’t even make sense for a messaging app. > I'm not sure why you need to assume that it will be linked back to your real identity; I’m not assuming, only North America (edit: and some European countries) doesn’t require an ID for a phone number (1), and even in here, you would use it in other services that are linked to your real ID like banks or paying the phone bill online. The concept simply boils down to as soon as you find an account’s phone number, it’s a game over for that said privacy. (1) https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/sim-card-registration-laws/ https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/sim-card-regist...
- pyramid301 3y ago
  [dead]
- hnarn 3y ago
  > The concept simply boils down to as soon as you find an account’s phone number, it’s a game over for that said privacy You completely misunderstand what kind of privacy Signal aims to achieve. Signal protects you from eavesdropping and data hoarding, two major privacy issues with solutions like Facebook Messenger for example. They do not and have never claimed to offer a service where “privacy” means nobody knows who anyone is, it isn’t Tor and I wouldn’t want it to be. If you don’t like the goals and design choices of Signal, just use another service. There are benefits of the choices they’ve made, namely ensuring that most users of the service are “real people”, which I think is great. It’s not a social network, it’s a messaging app between friends that solves issues presented by alternatives like SMS or Instagram; that’s it.

windexh8er 3y ago

Definitely not a copy of Telegram. I'm not actually sure what the draw is with Telegram but given it's origins I'll choose Signal over Telegram. If you read the thread the linkage between a phone number and a Signal account cuts down on fake accounts significantly - which has nothing to do with "social media" but it does have a lot to do with SPAM as you've incorrectly stated. I understand why it's not ideal, but there are tradeoffs in both directions. It's unlikely that usernames are going to expose users more than they currently are if they're already using Signal. And it's also unlikely that this new feature changes much, but I welcome the ability to prevent users from associating my known number to my Signal account. In this way the security model has improved considerably.

anigbrowl 3y ago
Telegram's privacy is questionable but its UI is absolutely outstanding.
- xk_id 3y ago
  I know right? Telegram is one of my favourite iPhone apps, hands down, purely on the basis of the interface. It’s also incredibly performant, which means a lot considering I use a 6S model from 2015. In comparison, the last discord update became literally unusable, for performance reasons (it was so bad, i ended up deleting it).
mardifoufs 3y ago
Telegram has channels and groups that work in a weird but very useful way. That's mostly the draw for me, not really the private messaging. Though the UX is just amazing, even for private messages. Everything is just super neat and where you expect it to be. I'd still probably not use it if it wasn't for how channels work
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
mattl 3y ago
Does Telegram still have a feature where you can see who nearby you is using Telegram? That to me is a reason alone to not install it.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago

Telegram? Neither ICQ (1996), nor Skype (2003) required phone numbers. That's a later trend, part of general enshittification of internet.

mattl 3y ago
How much spam did you get on ICQ? I remember getting a lot.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
  I dont remember getting spam, but I ditched it pretty early on in favor of Microsoft messenger (RIP).

tgsovlerkhgsel 3y ago

Because the social graph sitting in people's phone address books isn't easily replicated, and using phone numbers is basically the only chance of overcoming the chicken-and-egg problem with network effect.

heavyset_go 3y ago

> why does Signal still require a phone number in the first place? Governments won't go on a crusade against Signal as long as they keep records of who is using their platform to commit crimes. Signal won't commit to being an anonymous platform likely for that reason.

leotravis10 3y ago
Yep, plus I (and many others) feel the US government is satisifed with the information that Signal provide to the government and it has to follow juristictions such as NSLs: https://dessalines.github.io/essays/why_not_signal.html#a-single-centralized-us-based-service https://dessalines.github.io/essays/why_not_signal.html#a-si...

sneak 3y ago

You can use burner voip numbers, it doesn’t need to be a gsm sim in your phone or tied to your identity in any way.