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If you start talking about Palestine in your Differential Equations class, that is indoctrination. If you start talking about Jews in your CompSci 102 class, th

If you start talking about Palestine in your Differential Equations class, that is indoctrination. If you start talking about Jews in your CompSci 102 class, that is indoctrination. There is no reason to talk about anything besides the class, in the class.

lapetitejort 3y ago
Can you point to a curriculum or lecture where that has occurred?
- polski-g 3y ago
  [dead]
itishappy 3y ago
Can we mention economics in that differential equations class? What about hyperinflation? Specific instances of hyperinflation? Can we mention Einstein in physics 101? His faith and politics is too far, surely, but are they really entirely unrelated to his science? What about Heisenberg? Bohr? Oppenheimer?
- geodel 3y ago
  Answer is pretty clear. You are bringing them as some sort of trick question. Economics, inflation, hyperinflation calculations can all be related and on topic of differential equations but bringing in *How neoliberal economics is causing hyperinflation does not belong to maths class. One could mention all above physicists and more in Physics class but talking about how Einstein was misogynist would not be topic for Physics class.
  - itishappy 3y ago
    I don't think it's a trick question at all... I think these are standard, everyday, run-of-the-mill questions. Progress is driven entirely by people, and people are often influenced by their messy personal histories. Conflicts, disagreements, and interpersonal relations are deeply entwined with even the hard sciences! Can you imagine the situation in, say, linguistics? Einstein as a misogynist might not be appropriate, but how about as a Jew in Nazi Germany? Is the phrase "God does not play dice with the universe" indoctrination? Can we discuss the Solvay conferences? The first Solvay conference is likely the most important gathering of scientists in modern history. The third? Indoctrination. What about Galileo and the church? I guess my point is that history is messy, and not scientific. Does this mean we should remove dates from science classes?
    - sponaugle 3y ago
      It is interesting that you referenced "God does not play dice with the universe". If you were to discuss it, I would suggest discussing what he actually said: "Die Quantenmechanik ist sehr achtung-gebietend. Aber eine innere Stimme sagt mir, daß das doch nicht der wahre Jakob ist. Die Theorie liefert viel, aber dem Geheimnis des Alten bringt sie uns kaum näher. Jedenfalls bin ich überzeugt, daß der nicht würfelt." There are a number of different translations, but one is: Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the "old one." I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice. It is relatively easy to understand both the context and meaning of what Einstein said, especially if you read his numerous other works. The objection to some of the key underpinnings of Quantum Mechanics was something he mentioned a number of times. They key here is that you can explore and understand what Einstein was talking about without digging deep into the meaning of a god, or his view of religion. The concepts of Quantum Mechanics are complicated enough to keep any undergrad or grad student busy for a lifetime.
      - itishappy 3y ago
        That's more or less how it was discussed in either my QM or E&M class (sans German). I found it fascinating, and it's kindled a lifelong love of QM within me! But, in the context of this thread... Is it physics? I'd say no! It's metaphysics at best and really more along the lines of history and philosophy. That would make it indoctrination by many of the arguments in this thread! (I intend this to be a somewhat uncharitable interpretation.) My argument is simply that classification is hard. And again, this should be one of the easier field to classify! To bring it back to my linguistics example, can you imagine trying to discuss African American Vernacular English without leaving the confines of linguistic theory?
- rKarpinski 3y ago
  Hot take, but I don't those 20th century modern physicists should be the focus of an intro to Newtonian mechanics survey course.
  - itishappy 3y ago
    Ha! I'll be honest, it's been over a decade since I took intro physics, and I work in the optics industry, so my perspective is certainly skewed! Fascinating what we take for granted...
wait_a_minute 3y ago
100% this. This should not be rocket science. Time to kick out faculty and problematic students that want to make math and comp sci and biology about these types of things. Leave those for politics and philosophy classes where real and meaningful debate can take place.
- shadowgovt 3y ago
  There was a time we thought of physics as just a discipline physicists do, detached from the use of the science. Then two cities got wiped off the map in intentional runaway nuclear reactions. A whole generation of physicists learned the hard way that if you don't make hard sciences at least a little like those types of things, you may lack the framework to realize when you're being co-opted into a machine that kills... That "pure" science takes huge moral risks if it believes itself to be detachable from the world it is trying to explore. Credit where credit is due, they responded to the new challenge (https://pugwash.org/ https://pugwash.org/).
  - wait_a_minute 3y ago
    Those two cities getting wiped off the map is not an output of people thinking of physics as a discipline. There is no causal relationship between: p1 - treat physics as a discipline p2 - two cities get wiped off the map There are many more variables that are relevant here, and in times of justified war like WW2 things are different. Consider a war scenario where your physicists spent all their undergraduate study time learning about identity politics and writing political preambles on their papers in order to get their papers even looked at.
    - selimthegrim 3y ago
      Go read about Orlov, Sakharov and Khalatnikov, (or Abdus Salam as a bonus track) and see if you can exhibit even an ounce of shame that any one of them felt, and hang your head.
reducesuffering 3y ago
Reminds me of Oakland, CA schools doing a walkout protest march when their kids already don't get enough teaching, being one of the worst school districts in the country. What message are you even trying to send? The most history-illiterate has a message you should listen to?
selimthegrim 3y ago
I stopped using a Mir textbook in my differential equations class the day Russia invaded Ukraine. Was that too political for you?

lapetitejort 3y ago

Can you point to a curriculum or lecture where that has occurred?

polski-g 3y ago
[dead]

itishappy 3y ago

Can we mention economics in that differential equations class? What about hyperinflation? Specific instances of hyperinflation? Can we mention Einstein in physics 101? His faith and politics is too far, surely, but are they really entirely unrelated to his science? What about Heisenberg? Bohr? Oppenheimer?

geodel 3y ago
Answer is pretty clear. You are bringing them as some sort of trick question. Economics, inflation, hyperinflation calculations can all be related and on topic of differential equations but bringing in *How neoliberal economics is causing hyperinflation does not belong to maths class. One could mention all above physicists and more in Physics class but talking about how Einstein was misogynist would not be topic for Physics class.
- itishappy 3y ago
  I don't think it's a trick question at all... I think these are standard, everyday, run-of-the-mill questions. Progress is driven entirely by people, and people are often influenced by their messy personal histories. Conflicts, disagreements, and interpersonal relations are deeply entwined with even the hard sciences! Can you imagine the situation in, say, linguistics? Einstein as a misogynist might not be appropriate, but how about as a Jew in Nazi Germany? Is the phrase "God does not play dice with the universe" indoctrination? Can we discuss the Solvay conferences? The first Solvay conference is likely the most important gathering of scientists in modern history. The third? Indoctrination. What about Galileo and the church? I guess my point is that history is messy, and not scientific. Does this mean we should remove dates from science classes?
  - sponaugle 3y ago
    It is interesting that you referenced "God does not play dice with the universe". If you were to discuss it, I would suggest discussing what he actually said: "Die Quantenmechanik ist sehr achtung-gebietend. Aber eine innere Stimme sagt mir, daß das doch nicht der wahre Jakob ist. Die Theorie liefert viel, aber dem Geheimnis des Alten bringt sie uns kaum näher. Jedenfalls bin ich überzeugt, daß der nicht würfelt." There are a number of different translations, but one is: Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the "old one." I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice. It is relatively easy to understand both the context and meaning of what Einstein said, especially if you read his numerous other works. The objection to some of the key underpinnings of Quantum Mechanics was something he mentioned a number of times. They key here is that you can explore and understand what Einstein was talking about without digging deep into the meaning of a god, or his view of religion. The concepts of Quantum Mechanics are complicated enough to keep any undergrad or grad student busy for a lifetime.
    - itishappy 3y ago
      That's more or less how it was discussed in either my QM or E&M class (sans German). I found it fascinating, and it's kindled a lifelong love of QM within me! But, in the context of this thread... Is it physics? I'd say no! It's metaphysics at best and really more along the lines of history and philosophy. That would make it indoctrination by many of the arguments in this thread! (I intend this to be a somewhat uncharitable interpretation.) My argument is simply that classification is hard. And again, this should be one of the easier field to classify! To bring it back to my linguistics example, can you imagine trying to discuss African American Vernacular English without leaving the confines of linguistic theory?
rKarpinski 3y ago
Hot take, but I don't those 20th century modern physicists should be the focus of an intro to Newtonian mechanics survey course.
- itishappy 3y ago
  Ha! I'll be honest, it's been over a decade since I took intro physics, and I work in the optics industry, so my perspective is certainly skewed! Fascinating what we take for granted...

wait_a_minute 3y ago

100% this. This should not be rocket science. Time to kick out faculty and problematic students that want to make math and comp sci and biology about these types of things. Leave those for politics and philosophy classes where real and meaningful debate can take place.

shadowgovt 3y ago
There was a time we thought of physics as just a discipline physicists do, detached from the use of the science. Then two cities got wiped off the map in intentional runaway nuclear reactions. A whole generation of physicists learned the hard way that if you don't make hard sciences at least a little like those types of things, you may lack the framework to realize when you're being co-opted into a machine that kills... That "pure" science takes huge moral risks if it believes itself to be detachable from the world it is trying to explore. Credit where credit is due, they responded to the new challenge (https://pugwash.org/ https://pugwash.org/).
- wait_a_minute 3y ago
  Those two cities getting wiped off the map is not an output of people thinking of physics as a discipline. There is no causal relationship between: p1 - treat physics as a discipline p2 - two cities get wiped off the map There are many more variables that are relevant here, and in times of justified war like WW2 things are different. Consider a war scenario where your physicists spent all their undergraduate study time learning about identity politics and writing political preambles on their papers in order to get their papers even looked at.
  - selimthegrim 3y ago
    Go read about Orlov, Sakharov and Khalatnikov, (or Abdus Salam as a bonus track) and see if you can exhibit even an ounce of shame that any one of them felt, and hang your head.

reducesuffering 3y ago

Reminds me of Oakland, CA schools doing a walkout protest march when their kids already don't get enough teaching, being one of the worst school districts in the country. What message are you even trying to send? The most history-illiterate has a message you should listen to?

selimthegrim 3y ago

I stopped using a Mir textbook in my differential equations class the day Russia invaded Ukraine. Was that too political for you?