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University faculty-activists are a perfect example of elite overproduction a la Turchin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction https://en.wikipedi

University faculty-activists are a perfect example of elite overproduction a la Turchin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction We create small, smart cadres of people who watch power and wealth pass them by, and they advocate to overturn the system driving their envy.

bena 3y ago
Both this article and the article on Turchin himself don't pass the smell test. They both read more like opinion pieces than informative articles. Like they were written by either Turchin himself or people who know him. Contrast the article on Turchin to the one on Tim Berners-Lee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee). No wishy-washy weasel language. No vague claims of contributions, just straight up: He was here, he did this thing.
- pictureofabear 3y ago
  I didn't get that same feeling from reading the two articles, but Turchin's article on Elite Overproduction is relatively new and the idea is only as old as 10 years. It's a theory that's very convenient for explaining the present but seems to be grounded in past political instability, so who knows... maybe it'll stand the test of time. It is interesting though.
rKarpinski 3y ago
> University faculty-activists are a perfect example of elite overproduction a la Turchin. The faculty pushing back against "administrative encroachment" and seeking "the primacy of teaching, learning and research" are your perfect example of an over produced elite?
- tines 3y ago
  No, the faculty-activists are the ones _being pushed back against_ by the faculty seeking the "primacy of teaching."
  - rKarpinski 3y ago
    But the only faculty-activists are the 'Faculty for Yale' mentioned in the article? Administrators (and students) are not faculty.
    - 2devnull 3y ago
      Mentioned in the article, maybe. But it’s common knowledge that most faculty today are de facto activists, they just done self identify as such usually.
      - rKarpinski 3y ago
        Is it common knowledge? My understanding is that it's generally the administrators and students who are the main forces of activism on campus, not the faculty (outside of some departments).
      - aaplok 3y ago
        > it’s common knowledge that most faculty today are de facto activists. Whose common knowledge? I have never heard the argument that most faculties are activists. This argument is a classic ad populum fallacy [0]. Using it to characterise (and discredit) and entire group is not a honorable thing to do. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
        2devnull 3y ago
        Listen to the recent pinker mearsheimer debate. Pinker would be a good person to advocate for the triumph of enlightenment values and where else would those values be most evident than the academy, and yet Jewish students are made to cower in fear at the student mobs tolerated, if not in effect manufactured by the educators at the nations’ highest institutions, Harvard, Penn, MIT… I know people who were in forced out of grad school for not engaging in activism, let alone committing the ultimate sin, having heterodox views. Perhaps that’s less common in STEM, where politics are non-essential, but it’s de rigeur in social sciences and I’d imagine much of the humanities. It’s common knowledge in many circles that you’ll get different education at Claremont vs berkeley.
aaplok 3y ago
> We create small, smart cadres of people who watch power and wealth pass them by, and they advocate to overturn the system driving their envy. "They're just jealous" forms of arguments are an ad-hominem fallacy, where characteristics of the opponent (here their supposed intent) are used to discredit their argument [0]. Not only is there no evidence that these activists aren't sincere (which doesn't mean that they are right) but even if they were driven by envy, that doesn't invalidate their criticism of those in power... [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  I might make an argument that we decided to sidestep fights over class equity for things like sexual and racial equity. That suits the powers that be better. Because now the lower classes are arguing about status instead of their share of the pie.
  - thereticent 3y ago
    I'd respond that there are many academic (and non-academic) intellectual activists that argue exactly that.
  - Guvante 3y ago
    Sexual and racial equality are lenses to show that the supposed meritocracy of Capitalism is bogus. After all if Capitalism can't ignore things that don't impact profits how can it be the perfect equalizer it supposedly is? Unfortunately the money spent by think tanks to prop up Capitalism is vast.
- why_is_it_good 3y ago
  Some slopes are slippery and some people have the cause of their deeds in their [material] characteristics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motive_(law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motive_(law)
  - aaplok 3y ago
solardev 3y ago
Do you really think people go into academia as faculty expecting to become rich, only to end up disillusioned? They can't be that smart then, lol. I don't think I've ever met a single faculty member who was there out of good business sense.
- washadjeffmad 3y ago
  I take it you didn't go to business school, where VPs and C-levels retire to?
  - solardev 3y ago
    I doubt those are the activist faculty types... (but no, I absolutely didn't go to business school, lol, about as far from it as you can get)
thereticent 3y ago
This is a jaded and uncharitable take. I'm faculty and not an activist, but I know quite a few faculty activists, and they do what they do out of a sincere desire to help others. It's not about resentment at all.
- brindlejim 3y ago
  A "sincere desire to help" is a form of self-validation, a move to serve the socially ambitious, and a show of power, in that "helping" implies superiority. It would be great if educators they could separate the search for truth from the search for "justice". Many can't. Fields in which facts only exist to support justice narratives probably don't belong in university at all.
- thereticent 3y ago
  Quite a claim. No evidence. As an example, I'm on the neurology faculty. One colleague is an academic activist in the sense that she educates, develops programming, and sits on several committees dedicated to ensuring that historically marginalized groups realize that neurology is a career possibility for them. It gets results, and it's not just self-validating. The claim that belief you can help someone assumes your own superiority is unfortunate.
  - brindlejim 3y ago
    Some form of at least partial superiority is inherent in the notion of "helping", as is a power dynamic. You say that your colleague's diversity-focused activity gets results, and my question is: what results? A more diverse body of students studying neurology? And if that is the answer, then who cares? What is your argument that increased diversity makes neurology or science better? If diversity is your objective function, fine. But there are other goals to pursue, and which should be pursued in academia by faculty. I think diversity is very far from what should be the top priority. The advantage of diversity is that it is an easy metric to understand, pursue and make gains in.
    - thereticent 3y ago

bena 3y ago

Both this article and the article on Turchin himself don't pass the smell test. They both read more like opinion pieces than informative articles. Like they were written by either Turchin himself or people who know him. Contrast the article on Turchin to the one on Tim Berners-Lee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee). No wishy-washy weasel language. No vague claims of contributions, just straight up: He was here, he did this thing.

pictureofabear 3y ago
I didn't get that same feeling from reading the two articles, but Turchin's article on Elite Overproduction is relatively new and the idea is only as old as 10 years. It's a theory that's very convenient for explaining the present but seems to be grounded in past political instability, so who knows... maybe it'll stand the test of time. It is interesting though.

rKarpinski 3y ago

> University faculty-activists are a perfect example of elite overproduction a la Turchin. The faculty pushing back against "administrative encroachment" and seeking "the primacy of teaching, learning and research" are your perfect example of an over produced elite?

tines 3y ago
No, the faculty-activists are the ones _being pushed back against_ by the faculty seeking the "primacy of teaching."
- rKarpinski 3y ago
  But the only faculty-activists are the 'Faculty for Yale' mentioned in the article? Administrators (and students) are not faculty.
  - 2devnull 3y ago
    Mentioned in the article, maybe. But it’s common knowledge that most faculty today are de facto activists, they just done self identify as such usually.
    - rKarpinski 3y ago
      Is it common knowledge? My understanding is that it's generally the administrators and students who are the main forces of activism on campus, not the faculty (outside of some departments).
    - aaplok 3y ago
      > it’s common knowledge that most faculty today are de facto activists. Whose common knowledge? I have never heard the argument that most faculties are activists. This argument is a classic ad populum fallacy [0]. Using it to characterise (and discredit) and entire group is not a honorable thing to do. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
      - 2devnull 3y ago
        Listen to the recent pinker mearsheimer debate. Pinker would be a good person to advocate for the triumph of enlightenment values and where else would those values be most evident than the academy, and yet Jewish students are made to cower in fear at the student mobs tolerated, if not in effect manufactured by the educators at the nations’ highest institutions, Harvard, Penn, MIT… I know people who were in forced out of grad school for not engaging in activism, let alone committing the ultimate sin, having heterodox views. Perhaps that’s less common in STEM, where politics are non-essential, but it’s de rigeur in social sciences and I’d imagine much of the humanities. It’s common knowledge in many circles that you’ll get different education at Claremont vs berkeley.

aaplok 3y ago

> We create small, smart cadres of people who watch power and wealth pass them by, and they advocate to overturn the system driving their envy. "They're just jealous" forms of arguments are an ad-hominem fallacy, where characteristics of the opponent (here their supposed intent) are used to discredit their argument [0]. Not only is there no evidence that these activists aren't sincere (which doesn't mean that they are right) but even if they were driven by envy, that doesn't invalidate their criticism of those in power... [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Gibbon1 3y ago
I might make an argument that we decided to sidestep fights over class equity for things like sexual and racial equity. That suits the powers that be better. Because now the lower classes are arguing about status instead of their share of the pie.
- thereticent 3y ago
  I'd respond that there are many academic (and non-academic) intellectual activists that argue exactly that.
- Guvante 3y ago
  Sexual and racial equality are lenses to show that the supposed meritocracy of Capitalism is bogus. After all if Capitalism can't ignore things that don't impact profits how can it be the perfect equalizer it supposedly is? Unfortunately the money spent by think tanks to prop up Capitalism is vast.
why_is_it_good 3y ago
Some slopes are slippery and some people have the cause of their deeds in their [material] characteristics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motive_(law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motive_(law)
- aaplok 3y ago

solardev 3y ago

Do you really think people go into academia as faculty expecting to become rich, only to end up disillusioned? They can't be that smart then, lol. I don't think I've ever met a single faculty member who was there out of good business sense.

washadjeffmad 3y ago
I take it you didn't go to business school, where VPs and C-levels retire to?
- solardev 3y ago
  I doubt those are the activist faculty types... (but no, I absolutely didn't go to business school, lol, about as far from it as you can get)

thereticent 3y ago

This is a jaded and uncharitable take. I'm faculty and not an activist, but I know quite a few faculty activists, and they do what they do out of a sincere desire to help others. It's not about resentment at all.

brindlejim 3y ago
A "sincere desire to help" is a form of self-validation, a move to serve the socially ambitious, and a show of power, in that "helping" implies superiority. It would be great if educators they could separate the search for truth from the search for "justice". Many can't. Fields in which facts only exist to support justice narratives probably don't belong in university at all.
thereticent 3y ago
Quite a claim. No evidence. As an example, I'm on the neurology faculty. One colleague is an academic activist in the sense that she educates, develops programming, and sits on several committees dedicated to ensuring that historically marginalized groups realize that neurology is a career possibility for them. It gets results, and it's not just self-validating. The claim that belief you can help someone assumes your own superiority is unfortunate.
- brindlejim 3y ago
  Some form of at least partial superiority is inherent in the notion of "helping", as is a power dynamic. You say that your colleague's diversity-focused activity gets results, and my question is: what results? A more diverse body of students studying neurology? And if that is the answer, then who cares? What is your argument that increased diversity makes neurology or science better? If diversity is your objective function, fine. But there are other goals to pursue, and which should be pursued in academia by faculty. I think diversity is very far from what should be the top priority. The advantage of diversity is that it is an easy metric to understand, pursue and make gains in.
  - thereticent 3y ago