4 ms·

Seems like they're giving up (on HMD hardware). Index will probably be the last headset Valve makes. It was a fun idea. But with the Vision Pro showing that eve

Seems like they're giving up (on HMD hardware). Index will probably be the last headset Valve makes. It was a fun idea. But with the Vision Pro showing that even Apple can't make the "smartphone strapped to your face" version of VR work, it's becoming pretty obvious that it's a technological dead end for anyone but niche gamers.

cma 3y ago
Vision pro is laptop chips and silicon backplane microdisplays, a bit of a move away from the smartphone on your face approach components wise, though I'm sure some of the sensors may be shared.
BudaDude 3y ago
Thats a pretty hot take. It's way too early to say the Vision Pro is a flop. Remember, the first Apple Watch received mixed reviews. Yet, after several updates and feature additions, it became one of the most, if not the most, popular wearables. History often repeats itself with Apple products initially deemed failures. To illustrate, consider the initial reception of the iPod, as discussed in this link: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-new-thing-ipod.500/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-new-thing-ipod.5... One more thing, Valve hasn't exited the hardware market. The Steam Deck is a clear indication of their ongoing commitment.
- jwells89 3y ago
  Yeah Vision Pro strikes me as typical Apple first gen more than anything. It might in reality be a flop, but I’d wait a few hardware generations before declaring as such with any level of certainty.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  > History often repeats itself with Apple products initially deemed failures. Maybe, but that never saved the Lisa, the Newton or the Butterfly keyboard. Sometimes, Apple takes a big risk that's far too early, expensive or simply doesn't pay off. I don't think it's a particularly hot take to say that VR/AR content creation has been stagnant for a decade. Valve couldn't save it by moving mountains, Meta barely made it mass-marketable with a barebones MVP, and Apple is... gentrifying the higher-end. It's not so much an insult towards Apple as it is to the field and it's market fit. Nobody has had an "iPhone moment" yet, not even Apple.
  - HeWhoLurksLate 3y ago
    In the case of the butterfly keyboard, market fit is a very different thing from engineering failure
- taeric 3y ago
  Vision Pro is going to be an interesting watch. I doubt it is bad gear, but it is hard to really understand the market Apple is chasing. In particular, the consumer VR market is dominated by gamers to an absurd degree. Trying to pull casuals into it feels way too strained. Similarly, professional use doesn't seem to be a strong value add, either. Will be interesting to see where things land.
  - J_Shelby_J 3y ago
    Vision Pro is to meta quest 3 what Starbucks is to local coffee shops. Meaning, quest 3 is amazing, and Vision Pro is the best thing to happen to AR. I hope steam doesn’t pull out. Zuck can preach about openness but the platform is still antagonistic to pc users.
    - taeric 3y ago
      I'm still rather bullish against AR. The passthrough of the PSVR2 is nice, to get your controllers in hand and room setup. Otherwise, I don't see the value add, just yet. Heck, the best games make use of the headphones so well that I feel like I'm already in another room.
- TravelPiglet 3y ago
  Apple Watch is a flop. It's not delivered on anything other than being a good fitness tracker.
  - prewett 3y ago
    I would dearly love to have a flop like the Apple Watch... If a product with tens of billions in yearly revenue is a flop, well, sign me up!
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      At this point, Apple could release a line of $99 drink cozies and sell out 5 minutes after they announce it. The fact that people buy what Apple sells isn't really an indication of whether the product is good or not.
      - TillE 3y ago
        It's been selling well for almost 9 years now! You can call it many things, but it is clearly not a "flop".
        smoldesu 3y ago
        I didn't call it a "flop", I said it's status as a flop doesn't correlate to how good a product is. The Butterfly Keyboard never flopped, but it also never got a legitimate competitor. People bought them because they were forced to, same as they were with Airpods and arguably the Apple Watch. I feel the same way about a lot of Apple products. The Magic Trackpad would sell out instantly if it got a new model with USB-C - but Apple knows they can ship more Lightning cables if they avoid it. It's part of the sinister math that goes into making you and I rely on Apple's constant... ahem, Innovation.
        zlsa 3y ago
        The Magic Trackpad comes with a USB-C (computer) to Lightning (Magic Trackpad) cable. https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK2D3AM/A/magic-trackpad-white-multi-touch-surface https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK2D3AM/A/magic-trackpad-... (I agree with you, for what it's worth - Apple is weirdly slow to update some of their products; AirPods Max stand out here as missing USB-C and the lossless audio of AirPods Pro.)
- DiabloD3 3y ago
  But.... the Watch was a failure and failed to find its market fit. It never took off with biohackers, it isn't useful for interacting with products or services or any communications service, and it can't even really tell the time unless you charge it every other day. The Steam Deck otoh became an absolute hit on day one and completely sold out in short order. It sold waaaayyy better than Valve ever thought it would.
dr_kretyn 3y ago
I'm clearly just a casual passer-by. Any chance you could elaborate the connection between opening an audio SDK and giving up on hardware? To me that feels like a big leap.
webkike 3y ago
Giving up on hardware? The steam deck OLED was released last November
taeric 3y ago
With how well the steam deck was received, I'd expect them to lean more into it? Is it better in press than it was in actual sales? And I know I have tentative plans for the next VR thing they try. I have the PSVR2 and it is really good at the games it is for. To the point that I'd expect next generation efforts to be amazing.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  The problem is that Valve’s profit margin on the store is very healthy. Low production runs of a hardware device are just not making them a lot of money comparatively.
  - taeric 3y ago
    Fair. That said, I get the impression they still do a lot because they want to. Not necessarily because they have to.
    - ffsm8 3y ago
      Valve is a privately held company. It's not forced to maximize quarterly returns for shareholders, it just does whatever Gabe wants.
  - pennomi 3y ago
    That being said, Steam Deck probably sells more games than, for example, the Steam Controller did. Probably sells more games than their VR headset did too.
ranger207 3y ago
I have a copy of every piece of Valve hardware except for a Steam Machine, and if there's anything that that's taught me, it's that Valve cannot make hardware v2 in anything. I snapped up the transparent case OLED Steam Deck immediately because I do not expect there to be a Steam Deck 2
- mtsr 3y ago
  I’ve understood it as: Valve isn’t really in the hardware or console business. They release these fairly open devices in the hopes they get copied by others. Either to create a new market for Steam or to ensure an upcoming market has at least some Steam compatible devices.
  - ThatPlayer 3y ago
    Or they work with manufacturers like with HTC and Oculus for SteamVR, and the original Steam Machines which the only manufacturer I remember is Alienware. Though they seem to be keeping SteamOS 3 close to their chest.
- themaninthedark 3y ago
  Valve knows how to count to 2, it just takes a long time. Now I would never expect a v3 of anything...
hgs3 3y ago
> it's becoming pretty obvious that it's a technological dead end for anyone but niche gamers. Even if that's the case, it's OK to have a niche product. Gaming is a multi-billion dollar industry so the market is worth pursuing.

cma 3y ago

Vision pro is laptop chips and silicon backplane microdisplays, a bit of a move away from the smartphone on your face approach components wise, though I'm sure some of the sensors may be shared.

BudaDude 3y ago

Thats a pretty hot take. It's way too early to say the Vision Pro is a flop. Remember, the first Apple Watch received mixed reviews. Yet, after several updates and feature additions, it became one of the most, if not the most, popular wearables. History often repeats itself with Apple products initially deemed failures. To illustrate, consider the initial reception of the iPod, as discussed in this link: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-new-thing-ipod.500/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apples-new-thing-ipod.5... One more thing, Valve hasn't exited the hardware market. The Steam Deck is a clear indication of their ongoing commitment.

jwells89 3y ago
Yeah Vision Pro strikes me as typical Apple first gen more than anything. It might in reality be a flop, but I’d wait a few hardware generations before declaring as such with any level of certainty.
smoldesu 3y ago
> History often repeats itself with Apple products initially deemed failures. Maybe, but that never saved the Lisa, the Newton or the Butterfly keyboard. Sometimes, Apple takes a big risk that's far too early, expensive or simply doesn't pay off. I don't think it's a particularly hot take to say that VR/AR content creation has been stagnant for a decade. Valve couldn't save it by moving mountains, Meta barely made it mass-marketable with a barebones MVP, and Apple is... gentrifying the higher-end. It's not so much an insult towards Apple as it is to the field and it's market fit. Nobody has had an "iPhone moment" yet, not even Apple.
- HeWhoLurksLate 3y ago
  In the case of the butterfly keyboard, market fit is a very different thing from engineering failure
taeric 3y ago
Vision Pro is going to be an interesting watch. I doubt it is bad gear, but it is hard to really understand the market Apple is chasing. In particular, the consumer VR market is dominated by gamers to an absurd degree. Trying to pull casuals into it feels way too strained. Similarly, professional use doesn't seem to be a strong value add, either. Will be interesting to see where things land.
- J_Shelby_J 3y ago
  Vision Pro is to meta quest 3 what Starbucks is to local coffee shops. Meaning, quest 3 is amazing, and Vision Pro is the best thing to happen to AR. I hope steam doesn’t pull out. Zuck can preach about openness but the platform is still antagonistic to pc users.
  - taeric 3y ago
    I'm still rather bullish against AR. The passthrough of the PSVR2 is nice, to get your controllers in hand and room setup. Otherwise, I don't see the value add, just yet. Heck, the best games make use of the headphones so well that I feel like I'm already in another room.
TravelPiglet 3y ago
Apple Watch is a flop. It's not delivered on anything other than being a good fitness tracker.
- prewett 3y ago
  I would dearly love to have a flop like the Apple Watch... If a product with tens of billions in yearly revenue is a flop, well, sign me up!
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    At this point, Apple could release a line of $99 drink cozies and sell out 5 minutes after they announce it. The fact that people buy what Apple sells isn't really an indication of whether the product is good or not.
    - TillE 3y ago
      It's been selling well for almost 9 years now! You can call it many things, but it is clearly not a "flop".
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        I didn't call it a "flop", I said it's status as a flop doesn't correlate to how good a product is. The Butterfly Keyboard never flopped, but it also never got a legitimate competitor. People bought them because they were forced to, same as they were with Airpods and arguably the Apple Watch. I feel the same way about a lot of Apple products. The Magic Trackpad would sell out instantly if it got a new model with USB-C - but Apple knows they can ship more Lightning cables if they avoid it. It's part of the sinister math that goes into making you and I rely on Apple's constant... ahem, Innovation.
        zlsa 3y ago
        The Magic Trackpad comes with a USB-C (computer) to Lightning (Magic Trackpad) cable. https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK2D3AM/A/magic-trackpad-white-multi-touch-surface https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK2D3AM/A/magic-trackpad-... (I agree with you, for what it's worth - Apple is weirdly slow to update some of their products; AirPods Max stand out here as missing USB-C and the lossless audio of AirPods Pro.)
DiabloD3 3y ago
But.... the Watch was a failure and failed to find its market fit. It never took off with biohackers, it isn't useful for interacting with products or services or any communications service, and it can't even really tell the time unless you charge it every other day. The Steam Deck otoh became an absolute hit on day one and completely sold out in short order. It sold waaaayyy better than Valve ever thought it would.

dr_kretyn 3y ago

I'm clearly just a casual passer-by. Any chance you could elaborate the connection between opening an audio SDK and giving up on hardware? To me that feels like a big leap.

webkike 3y ago

Giving up on hardware? The steam deck OLED was released last November

taeric 3y ago

With how well the steam deck was received, I'd expect them to lean more into it? Is it better in press than it was in actual sales? And I know I have tentative plans for the next VR thing they try. I have the PSVR2 and it is really good at the games it is for. To the point that I'd expect next generation efforts to be amazing.

0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
The problem is that Valve’s profit margin on the store is very healthy. Low production runs of a hardware device are just not making them a lot of money comparatively.
- taeric 3y ago
  Fair. That said, I get the impression they still do a lot because they want to. Not necessarily because they have to.
  - ffsm8 3y ago
    Valve is a privately held company. It's not forced to maximize quarterly returns for shareholders, it just does whatever Gabe wants.
- pennomi 3y ago
  That being said, Steam Deck probably sells more games than, for example, the Steam Controller did. Probably sells more games than their VR headset did too.

ranger207 3y ago

I have a copy of every piece of Valve hardware except for a Steam Machine, and if there's anything that that's taught me, it's that Valve cannot make hardware v2 in anything. I snapped up the transparent case OLED Steam Deck immediately because I do not expect there to be a Steam Deck 2

mtsr 3y ago
I’ve understood it as: Valve isn’t really in the hardware or console business. They release these fairly open devices in the hopes they get copied by others. Either to create a new market for Steam or to ensure an upcoming market has at least some Steam compatible devices.
- ThatPlayer 3y ago
  Or they work with manufacturers like with HTC and Oculus for SteamVR, and the original Steam Machines which the only manufacturer I remember is Alienware. Though they seem to be keeping SteamOS 3 close to their chest.
themaninthedark 3y ago
Valve knows how to count to 2, it just takes a long time. Now I would never expect a v3 of anything...

hgs3 3y ago

> it's becoming pretty obvious that it's a technological dead end for anyone but niche gamers. Even if that's the case, it's OK to have a niche product. Gaming is a multi-billion dollar industry so the market is worth pursuing.