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> Do you figure the Russian federation needs to invade Ukraine because the western alliance against it has expanded along its border without buffer zones and co

> Do you figure the Russian federation needs to invade Ukraine because the western alliance against it has expanded along its border without buffer zones and competing client states? The February 2022 events were triggered because Kyiv wasn't fulfilling the peace agreement with Donetsk for years. You can check OSCE reports for the week before the invasion and see that the ceasefire was completely trashed, as well as check out what Ukrainian leaders had said regarding the Minks agreements. One of them (Poroshenko) non-jokingly claimed that lying about peace agreements was a Sun Tsy tactics. In a world based on rules, lying about a peace agreement while preparing for war will only end badly (and it did). > who has business ambitions in a major competing power (China) Who hasn't? Lockheed Martin? > Nuance? Context? Pick a side. Musk doesn’t love you. Thanks, but no. I don’t need to “pick a side” and I am extremely suspicious of rationality and motives of everyone who pushes me to both abandon my principles and reason, and to fall into perceiving everything as a perfect mortal dichotomy with no escape. I’m neither that suicidal nor brutal. And it is definitely not about someone’s “love”, objective reality exists. Picking sides already got half-a-million people dead.

jnsaff2 3y ago
russians are very selective with their truth and which agreements they like keep for the day. Remember Budapest Memorandum? Remember the MRP pact with Hitler?
- foverzar 3y ago
  > russians are very selective with their truth > Remember the MRP pact with Hitler? I am always in awe by the bitter-sweet irony of this particular bit. Because Russians actually remember MRP, as well as the fact that it was a direct response to the Munich Agreement and Poland and Hungary each tearing itself a piece of Czechoslovakia (yes, with Hitler), while Europeans desperately try to forget the later and play the victim of the former, despite them literally doing the same thing first and opening this can of worms themselves. But of course its the Russians who are being selective about truth. I honestly don't understand where did people in the west even got the idea that Russians don't know about about MRP. > Remember Budapest Memorandum? The one that was thrown away by US and EU when they had actively supported the coup/revolution of 2014? Sorry, you were saying something about selectively honoring agreements? You know, you probably should try having a serious talk with real Russians instead of relying on some thirdparty to build you a strawman.
Pigalowda 3y ago
You picked a side, the Russian federation. I’m not sure why you are so averse to owning that you picked it. The objective reality that everyone outside of your own mind is able to perceive is that you picked a side. So yes, you are that brutal. Just own it instead of vacillating and squirming. I too am also extremely suspicious of strangers on the internet describing how neutral they are but then pushing Russian talking points. It’s very typical for their culture to rationalize as you have. So have a great day!
- foverzar 3y ago
  > You picked a side Don't project your ying-yang dichotomic views on me. I'm just being objective about the cause-effect. And yeah, I do live here and this is too serious to ignore bullshit. > I’m not sure why you are so averse to owning that you picked it. > So yes, you are that brutal. Just own it instead of vacillating and squirming. Because I see people who picked a side screaming "ceasefire is not an option", "they died for Democracy/Motherland", "total military victory or bust" and that's just fucking disgusting. Yet somehow I am the brutal one, awesome. Sorry, but from where I stand, it's the sidepickers who have to squirm, shill, reinvent reality, and call things that you've acknowledged few years ago as totally non-existent and propaganda few years later. The further you are from exploding things and death, the more heroic you feel about picking a side. At least my views are solidly grounded in facts distilled by cross-referrensing distinct sources datasources, backed by opposing interests and a desire for a just resolution for everyone. > describing how neutral they are but then pushing Russian talking points Oh I am not neutral, I am pro-me! I just recognize the cause-effect and don't pretend that everything that doesn't fit my views is "talking points". Real life is a bit more complicated, you know. > It’s very typical for their culture to rationalize as you have. So have a great day! It's typical for any human to rationalize. Look how you rationalized dismissing my points, look how you rationalize hate and perpetuating war.
khokhol 3y ago
The February 2022 events were triggered because ... A very warped, and highly misleading description of events is all that time permits me to say. Just stop pretending you haven't picked a side, please.
- foverzar 3y ago
  > A very warped, and highly misleading description of events is all that time permits me to say. Oh please, you just don't have anything substantial to say. > Just stop pretending you haven't picked a side, please. But I haven't. If I did, I'd be making donations on drones and fancy equipment or volunteering my engineering skills. My current situation so far allows me not to get involved. And I honestly find it super-weird how people here seem to push me into picking one. If I am forced to, I'll likely act the same way many ordinary Ukrainians did - naturally just pick a side closer to my family and friends. I do sympathize the people of Donetsk and Luhansk, due to the fact that they basically get treated as an empty spot and I saw their own former compatriots being absolutely horrible and dehumanizing towards them (thanks to the power of the internet). It probably would be fair to say that it's the core reason Russia gets any support. The fact that the other side wasn't able to quickly turn tables on that matter indicates that there really is a serious problem and these are not really such good guys doing it all right.
dralley 3y ago
> The February 2022 events were triggered because Kyiv wasn't fulfilling the peace agreement with Donetsk for years. I want you to go down the list of points in the Minsk II agreement and explain how Russia didn't make an absolute farce out of them - in particular, points 9 and 10. And what's more they repeatedly engaged in massive cyber attacks against Ukraine - actual destructive attacks intended to shut down their power grid and destroy banking data amongst other things. I'd also like to hear you explain why there even needed to be a Minsk II in the first place, given that you think it was Ukraine doing all of the violations. Hint: it was not. There are even Russian documentaries about the war where, during the supposed ceasefire, they filmed themselves crossing over to Ukrainian trenches at night to bury mines in them.
- foverzar 3y ago
  > I want you to go down the list of points in the Minsk II agreement and explain how Russia didn't make an absolute farce out of them And I don't want to serve your attitude and play a Russel's teapot guessing game. I am not going to try and guess counter-arguments to something you can't even properly put in words, since it makes it easier for you to avoid thinking about it too much. > And what's more they repeatedly engaged in massive cyber attacks against Ukraine - actual destructive attacks intended to shut down their power grid and destroy banking data amongst other things. Poor banking data. Sucks to suck when you happen do be the one on hacktivist's receiving end, doesn't it? Kyiv is a willing and a nasty belligerent, not a victim. Try hosting and securing something in Russia and see just how much of a pain in the ass you'll get. I know of enough literal CTOs getting so pissed about it, that they engaged in hacktivism themselves just to make a point. Obviously in each case it only made things worse and generated more mutual hatred. And don't get me started on all those personal data repositories hacks and scamming campaigns. > given that you think it was Ukraine doing all of the violations. Hint: it was not You should read what was actually written. Not what you've imagined. > There are even Russian documentaries about the war where, during the supposed ceasefire, they filmed themselves crossing over to Ukrainian trenches at night to bury mines in them. There are documented cases of Kyiv engaging in airstrikes on Donetsk and then claiming those were merely air conditioners exploding. This lasted until Donetsk rebels started shooting down aircrafts, followed by the tragedy with the civilian plane. Your argument boils down to "things happening during a steaming barely frozen conflict - bad". Well of-f-ing-course they are. That's why you have to tackle core issues, otherwise good luck treating symptoms by trying to contain thousands of motivated individuals each with their own petty vengeance and a tragic story behind it. Kyiv literally didn't do shit to actually resolve it: they didn't do amnesty; they didn't do the constitutional reform; they were demanding Donetsk to surrender and give up all the leverage and a chance for defense BEFORE holding elections, denying Steinmeier formula and elections under OSCE observers. All Kyiv did is complain how the sustainable peace didn't just appear from the thin air, without actually doing anything substantial to get there. Stupid war is literally the only possible thing one could achieve with that kind of policy.
oneshtein 3y ago
Ukraine signed peace agreement with what?
- foverzar 3y ago
  Kyiv signed peace agreement with Donetsk and Luhansk, while France and Germany acting as a guarantor to the former, and Russia being a guarantor for the later.

jnsaff2 3y ago

russians are very selective with their truth and which agreements they like keep for the day. Remember Budapest Memorandum? Remember the MRP pact with Hitler?

foverzar 3y ago
> russians are very selective with their truth > Remember the MRP pact with Hitler? I am always in awe by the bitter-sweet irony of this particular bit. Because Russians actually remember MRP, as well as the fact that it was a direct response to the Munich Agreement and Poland and Hungary each tearing itself a piece of Czechoslovakia (yes, with Hitler), while Europeans desperately try to forget the later and play the victim of the former, despite them literally doing the same thing first and opening this can of worms themselves. But of course its the Russians who are being selective about truth. I honestly don't understand where did people in the west even got the idea that Russians don't know about about MRP. > Remember Budapest Memorandum? The one that was thrown away by US and EU when they had actively supported the coup/revolution of 2014? Sorry, you were saying something about selectively honoring agreements? You know, you probably should try having a serious talk with real Russians instead of relying on some thirdparty to build you a strawman.

Pigalowda 3y ago

You picked a side, the Russian federation. I’m not sure why you are so averse to owning that you picked it. The objective reality that everyone outside of your own mind is able to perceive is that you picked a side. So yes, you are that brutal. Just own it instead of vacillating and squirming. I too am also extremely suspicious of strangers on the internet describing how neutral they are but then pushing Russian talking points. It’s very typical for their culture to rationalize as you have. So have a great day!

foverzar 3y ago
> You picked a side Don't project your ying-yang dichotomic views on me. I'm just being objective about the cause-effect. And yeah, I do live here and this is too serious to ignore bullshit. > I’m not sure why you are so averse to owning that you picked it. > So yes, you are that brutal. Just own it instead of vacillating and squirming. Because I see people who picked a side screaming "ceasefire is not an option", "they died for Democracy/Motherland", "total military victory or bust" and that's just fucking disgusting. Yet somehow I am the brutal one, awesome. Sorry, but from where I stand, it's the sidepickers who have to squirm, shill, reinvent reality, and call things that you've acknowledged few years ago as totally non-existent and propaganda few years later. The further you are from exploding things and death, the more heroic you feel about picking a side. At least my views are solidly grounded in facts distilled by cross-referrensing distinct sources datasources, backed by opposing interests and a desire for a just resolution for everyone. > describing how neutral they are but then pushing Russian talking points Oh I am not neutral, I am pro-me! I just recognize the cause-effect and don't pretend that everything that doesn't fit my views is "talking points". Real life is a bit more complicated, you know. > It’s very typical for their culture to rationalize as you have. So have a great day! It's typical for any human to rationalize. Look how you rationalized dismissing my points, look how you rationalize hate and perpetuating war.

khokhol 3y ago

The February 2022 events were triggered because ... A very warped, and highly misleading description of events is all that time permits me to say. Just stop pretending you haven't picked a side, please.

foverzar 3y ago
> A very warped, and highly misleading description of events is all that time permits me to say. Oh please, you just don't have anything substantial to say. > Just stop pretending you haven't picked a side, please. But I haven't. If I did, I'd be making donations on drones and fancy equipment or volunteering my engineering skills. My current situation so far allows me not to get involved. And I honestly find it super-weird how people here seem to push me into picking one. If I am forced to, I'll likely act the same way many ordinary Ukrainians did - naturally just pick a side closer to my family and friends. I do sympathize the people of Donetsk and Luhansk, due to the fact that they basically get treated as an empty spot and I saw their own former compatriots being absolutely horrible and dehumanizing towards them (thanks to the power of the internet). It probably would be fair to say that it's the core reason Russia gets any support. The fact that the other side wasn't able to quickly turn tables on that matter indicates that there really is a serious problem and these are not really such good guys doing it all right.

dralley 3y ago

> The February 2022 events were triggered because Kyiv wasn't fulfilling the peace agreement with Donetsk for years. I want you to go down the list of points in the Minsk II agreement and explain how Russia didn't make an absolute farce out of them - in particular, points 9 and 10. And what's more they repeatedly engaged in massive cyber attacks against Ukraine - actual destructive attacks intended to shut down their power grid and destroy banking data amongst other things. I'd also like to hear you explain why there even needed to be a Minsk II in the first place, given that you think it was Ukraine doing all of the violations. Hint: it was not. There are even Russian documentaries about the war where, during the supposed ceasefire, they filmed themselves crossing over to Ukrainian trenches at night to bury mines in them.

foverzar 3y ago
> I want you to go down the list of points in the Minsk II agreement and explain how Russia didn't make an absolute farce out of them And I don't want to serve your attitude and play a Russel's teapot guessing game. I am not going to try and guess counter-arguments to something you can't even properly put in words, since it makes it easier for you to avoid thinking about it too much. > And what's more they repeatedly engaged in massive cyber attacks against Ukraine - actual destructive attacks intended to shut down their power grid and destroy banking data amongst other things. Poor banking data. Sucks to suck when you happen do be the one on hacktivist's receiving end, doesn't it? Kyiv is a willing and a nasty belligerent, not a victim. Try hosting and securing something in Russia and see just how much of a pain in the ass you'll get. I know of enough literal CTOs getting so pissed about it, that they engaged in hacktivism themselves just to make a point. Obviously in each case it only made things worse and generated more mutual hatred. And don't get me started on all those personal data repositories hacks and scamming campaigns. > given that you think it was Ukraine doing all of the violations. Hint: it was not You should read what was actually written. Not what you've imagined. > There are even Russian documentaries about the war where, during the supposed ceasefire, they filmed themselves crossing over to Ukrainian trenches at night to bury mines in them. There are documented cases of Kyiv engaging in airstrikes on Donetsk and then claiming those were merely air conditioners exploding. This lasted until Donetsk rebels started shooting down aircrafts, followed by the tragedy with the civilian plane. Your argument boils down to "things happening during a steaming barely frozen conflict - bad". Well of-f-ing-course they are. That's why you have to tackle core issues, otherwise good luck treating symptoms by trying to contain thousands of motivated individuals each with their own petty vengeance and a tragic story behind it. Kyiv literally didn't do shit to actually resolve it: they didn't do amnesty; they didn't do the constitutional reform; they were demanding Donetsk to surrender and give up all the leverage and a chance for defense BEFORE holding elections, denying Steinmeier formula and elections under OSCE observers. All Kyiv did is complain how the sustainable peace didn't just appear from the thin air, without actually doing anything substantial to get there. Stupid war is literally the only possible thing one could achieve with that kind of policy.

oneshtein 3y ago

Ukraine signed peace agreement with what?

foverzar 3y ago
Kyiv signed peace agreement with Donetsk and Luhansk, while France and Germany acting as a guarantor to the former, and Russia being a guarantor for the later.