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> So, not fun, not rewarding, no intellectual challenge, no career benefit. Why exactly should I want to do it? It does help you get the next job. You’re just

by Swizec 3y ago

> So, not fun, not rewarding, no intellectual challenge, no career benefit. Why exactly should I want to do it? It does help you get the next job. You’re just pitching it wrong. Instead of “Built boring tech” try “Delivered $5,000,000 return 2 months early”. Watch your inbox blow up. Business leaders don’t care about what you do, they care about results. What you do to get those results is just an unfortunate cost and obstacle to overcome on the way to the outcome.

JAlexoid 3y ago
Exactly. People forget that the final and most important decision for hiring will be at a less technical and much more bean-counting level. That's the reason why CS graduates with only bells and whistles in their CV have hard times getting a relevant position - glitter over your resume doesn't deliver value at all.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  > That's the reason why CS graduates with only bells and whistles in their CV have hard times getting a relevant position - glitter over your resume doesn't deliver value at all. If this is true, why does everyone still think that filling up their Technology Bingo card will get them their next job, rather than delivering business value?
  - Swizec 3y ago
    > why does everyone still think that filling up their Technology Bingo card will get them their next job It does for entry and mid level jobs. When you do this you’re advertising that that’s what you’re looking for – a grunt level job. Unfortunately most job seeking advice out there is for people new to the industry. Because there’s more of them. Think about it this way: Would you trust a CEO whose resume lists word, excel, powerpoint, and google docs under skills? Probably not, but you sure would expect a ceo knows how to use those.
loup-vaillant 3y ago
> Instead of “Built boring tech” try “Delivered $5,000,000 return 2 months early”. How do I do that without lying through my teeth? 17 years on the job, I never had the data to even begin estimate that kind of things. It was never my job to know it (I'm a programmer, not an accountant), and it was often actively hidden from me. And how did you do it? How did you get your numbers, and what did you tell recruiters when you didn't?
- Swizec 3y ago
  Maybe I’ve been extraordinarily lucky, but I’ve always just asked and people were so excited that an engineer would actually care about things that are on their mind all day every day. Might be more common in companies managed by OKR where you always know the business impact of your work. The business impact is your prime objective and you’re free to figure out the implementation.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    Right? I was going to ask OP "have you ever asked anyone?" Because, IME, managers, etc. love it when you show an interest in how the business works and where your part fits in. It also makes their job easier if they can relate the crappy stuff they have to assign you to how much benefit the business gets from it.
    - loup-vaillant 3y ago
      I must be doing something wrong because most of the time, getting interested in the wider impact of my work is held against me. I just ask why they want the stuff, suggest alternatives, point out issues, and the next day I'm an uncontrollable Maverick that means to rewrite everything and waste a ton of time… This also happens after explicit requests for feedback. Maybe they didn't actually meant it and I'm supposed to "take the hint" or some neurotypical bullshit, but when I hear such requests I tend to take them literally, and provide real feedback on the real issues. Unfortunately for all of us those tend to be stuff that ossified years ago and cannot (or will not) be fixed any time soon. Ever, in my experience. Quite the downer. Last time this happened I ended up being axed from a wave of layoffs. Whether their short term workflow and subsequent technical debt finally caught up to them, or their parent company just wanted to cut costs, I will never know. I do know my technical expertise was highly praised, and middle management felt I wasn't quite aligned with the goals of the company, whatever those were. (I think one significant cause was that I only emailed them about significant problems, and kept to myself and my team lead when it was smooth. I think in the future I will stop trusting them with anything negative.) So yeah, I can bet they love it when you act interested about their work, but start questioning their decisions (even just the one directly related to your own work and its likely impact on theirs), and the tone of the conversation changes very, very quickly. At least where I've worked.
reader_1000 3y ago
Most companies out there want you to have certain technologies / keywords in your resume and will automatically reject you if you don't have them. Yes, building a solid project with boring technology that delivers real business value sounds good in theory but not so good when applying for a new job. Maybe it can help after you somehow manage to pass some initial screening.

by Swizec 3y ago

JAlexoid 3y ago

Exactly. People forget that the final and most important decision for hiring will be at a less technical and much more bean-counting level. That's the reason why CS graduates with only bells and whistles in their CV have hard times getting a relevant position - glitter over your resume doesn't deliver value at all.

ryandrake 3y ago
> That's the reason why CS graduates with only bells and whistles in their CV have hard times getting a relevant position - glitter over your resume doesn't deliver value at all. If this is true, why does everyone still think that filling up their Technology Bingo card will get them their next job, rather than delivering business value?
- Swizec 3y ago
  > why does everyone still think that filling up their Technology Bingo card will get them their next job It does for entry and mid level jobs. When you do this you’re advertising that that’s what you’re looking for – a grunt level job. Unfortunately most job seeking advice out there is for people new to the industry. Because there’s more of them. Think about it this way: Would you trust a CEO whose resume lists word, excel, powerpoint, and google docs under skills? Probably not, but you sure would expect a ceo knows how to use those.

loup-vaillant 3y ago

> Instead of “Built boring tech” try “Delivered $5,000,000 return 2 months early”. How do I do that without lying through my teeth? 17 years on the job, I never had the data to even begin estimate that kind of things. It was never my job to know it (I'm a programmer, not an accountant), and it was often actively hidden from me. And how did you do it? How did you get your numbers, and what did you tell recruiters when you didn't?

Swizec 3y ago
Maybe I’ve been extraordinarily lucky, but I’ve always just asked and people were so excited that an engineer would actually care about things that are on their mind all day every day. Might be more common in companies managed by OKR where you always know the business impact of your work. The business impact is your prime objective and you’re free to figure out the implementation.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  Right? I was going to ask OP "have you ever asked anyone?" Because, IME, managers, etc. love it when you show an interest in how the business works and where your part fits in. It also makes their job easier if they can relate the crappy stuff they have to assign you to how much benefit the business gets from it.
  - loup-vaillant 3y ago
    I must be doing something wrong because most of the time, getting interested in the wider impact of my work is held against me. I just ask why they want the stuff, suggest alternatives, point out issues, and the next day I'm an uncontrollable Maverick that means to rewrite everything and waste a ton of time… This also happens after explicit requests for feedback. Maybe they didn't actually meant it and I'm supposed to "take the hint" or some neurotypical bullshit, but when I hear such requests I tend to take them literally, and provide real feedback on the real issues. Unfortunately for all of us those tend to be stuff that ossified years ago and cannot (or will not) be fixed any time soon. Ever, in my experience. Quite the downer. Last time this happened I ended up being axed from a wave of layoffs. Whether their short term workflow and subsequent technical debt finally caught up to them, or their parent company just wanted to cut costs, I will never know. I do know my technical expertise was highly praised, and middle management felt I wasn't quite aligned with the goals of the company, whatever those were. (I think one significant cause was that I only emailed them about significant problems, and kept to myself and my team lead when it was smooth. I think in the future I will stop trusting them with anything negative.) So yeah, I can bet they love it when you act interested about their work, but start questioning their decisions (even just the one directly related to your own work and its likely impact on theirs), and the tone of the conversation changes very, very quickly. At least where I've worked.

reader_1000 3y ago

Most companies out there want you to have certain technologies / keywords in your resume and will automatically reject you if you don't have them. Yes, building a solid project with boring technology that delivers real business value sounds good in theory but not so good when applying for a new job. Maybe it can help after you somehow manage to pass some initial screening.