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As someone who has done a fair bit of research on the urban decline nearly all American cities experienced in the latter half of the 20th century and parts of t

As someone who has done a fair bit of research on the urban decline nearly all American cities experienced in the latter half of the 20th century and parts of the 21st the idea of “gentrification” has always confused me. Gentrification seems to be a negative way of saying these areas are returning to the norm? The parts of these cities associated with being poor and blighted haven’t always been that way. Why would anyone expect or want that to continue indefinitely? Appeals to keeping a music/food culture fall somewhat flat to my ears when you just look at pictures of these areas or crime statistics of those periods.

schrijver 3y ago
It’s like the city fails the poor twice: first they have to enjoy substandard living conditions, and whenever this changes, they get priced out. Gentrification refers specifically to this displacement, and it shouldn’t be hard to understand why this is considered negative. No-one likes to have to move. It’s also an effect of how the housing market works almost anywhere, so it’s not so easy to imagine an alternative within these market economies—a challenge the article doesn’t really touch upon.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  What do you think about this development https://www.thecity.nyc/2024/01/22/affordable-housing-lottery-community-preference/ https://www.thecity.nyc/2024/01/22/affordable-housing-lotter... ? Some people think it is not a good thing to give people a preference to stay in the neighborhood they are in because this entrenches racial segregation.
- dublinben 3y ago
  Gentrification and displacement are distinct concepts, even if they are usually conflated in colloquial usage. Obviously nobody wants to be forced out of 'their neighborhood' if rent is raised, but this isn't an inevitable consequence of improved conditions. This Vox article does a great job explaining possible policies to mitigate this harm, like building more housing, stronger tenant protections, and upzoning wealthy segregated neighborhoods.[0] As you say, existing residents of a neighborhood should be able to enjoy the benefits of increased investment and improved conditions in their neighborhood. [0] https://www.vox.com/22629826/gentrification-definition-housing-racism-segregation-cities https://www.vox.com/22629826/gentrification-definition-housi...
  - cassepipe 3y ago
    Thanks for the link. I am not sure I like the article, it seems to be doing a lot of dancing around and have the issue appear more complex than it really is. Saying two concepts are being conflated without explaining the differences sounds a bit... pedant ? And it is because from what I can read, gentrification is when richer people arrive in a place. No wonder why people conflate it with rising prices and displacement of the poor, this is just the "natural" consequence in a market economy where housing is a commodity. Sure, you can (should!) have a policy to mitigate that problem but if you don't, as is usual, it just happens.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    > As you say, existing residents of a neighborhood should be able to enjoy the benefits of increased investment and improved conditions in their neighborhood. Is it possible got some of the existing residents to be partly responsible for undesirable conditions? If so, then displacing them seems like a necessary component. Note that I specified “some” residents, and “partly” responsible. A mechanism to cleanly identify and displace only them seems difficult to implement.
- aniftythrifrty 3y ago
  Being in a big city is supposed to come with opportunities. If people don't take those opportunities and then get priced out, whose fault is that?
  - harimau777 3y ago
    Often the fault is that they do not have the resources to take the opportunities or they take the opportunities and still get priced out.
  - runako 3y ago
    If you're earnestly curious about this, there is quite a large body of literature specifically about American cities.
- hackeraccount 3y ago
  Fails twice or can't win - it's hard to figure out which.
jrm4 3y ago
"The norm?" The problem with this analysis is that it prioritizes physical locations and comfortable people over, well, pain? I get that its weird, but it appears as if "society/culture" whatnot has a lot of trouble paying attention to pain unless expressed through fun art. So what people are perhaps subconsciously lamenting is the possibility of really changing things for a lot of people because our focus is at an interesting place being bulldozed by "the rich." Again.
dsr_ 3y ago
The arts are not profitable, except by accident. If you want art in a capitalist society, the options are to make it cheaper or to give it money. The cheapest places to live and work in a city are also the least desirable.
asow92 3y ago
Something that's always confused me in contemporary American discourse is that it's "white flight" when white people move out and "gentrification" when white people move back in. Can someone help me grok this?
- lordloki 3y ago
  Sure. White people bad.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  I'm not sure what you're asking. The terms describe inverse/opposite movements of mostly middle-class, mostly white populations. And (very generally) white flight occurred from the 60s to the 90s or 00s. And gentrification became a "big deal" in the 00s and into the 20s (very rough year ranges - varies significantly by city).
  - ghaff 3y ago
    >varies significantly by city I'd just add that gentrification of cities has been pretty selective overall. There are a ton of cities that haven't really gentrified or that have gentrified very narrowly (e.g. Detroit) in the US. One of the things that has led to housing affordability problems in that the mostly young professional influx to cities has mostly been to a fairly small selection of cities and has happened over the course of just a couple of decades.
- krapp 3y ago
  Gentrification is more about class than race - it's entirely possible for all black neighborhoods to be gentrified to cater to a wealthier black establishment at the expense of poor black base. At its core, gentrification is simply the result of capitalist government incentives to maximize tax revenues the way companies maximize profit. Poor people are driven out so that rich people can come in. In the US, the effect of a long history of white supremacist power structures is that class more often than not (although not always) maps to race. White flight, however, is entirely just about white people just wanting to get away from black people.

schrijver 3y ago

It’s like the city fails the poor twice: first they have to enjoy substandard living conditions, and whenever this changes, they get priced out. Gentrification refers specifically to this displacement, and it shouldn’t be hard to understand why this is considered negative. No-one likes to have to move. It’s also an effect of how the housing market works almost anywhere, so it’s not so easy to imagine an alternative within these market economies—a challenge the article doesn’t really touch upon.

PaulHoule 3y ago
What do you think about this development https://www.thecity.nyc/2024/01/22/affordable-housing-lottery-community-preference/ https://www.thecity.nyc/2024/01/22/affordable-housing-lotter... ? Some people think it is not a good thing to give people a preference to stay in the neighborhood they are in because this entrenches racial segregation.
dublinben 3y ago
Gentrification and displacement are distinct concepts, even if they are usually conflated in colloquial usage. Obviously nobody wants to be forced out of 'their neighborhood' if rent is raised, but this isn't an inevitable consequence of improved conditions. This Vox article does a great job explaining possible policies to mitigate this harm, like building more housing, stronger tenant protections, and upzoning wealthy segregated neighborhoods.[0] As you say, existing residents of a neighborhood should be able to enjoy the benefits of increased investment and improved conditions in their neighborhood. [0] https://www.vox.com/22629826/gentrification-definition-housing-racism-segregation-cities https://www.vox.com/22629826/gentrification-definition-housi...
- cassepipe 3y ago
  Thanks for the link. I am not sure I like the article, it seems to be doing a lot of dancing around and have the issue appear more complex than it really is. Saying two concepts are being conflated without explaining the differences sounds a bit... pedant ? And it is because from what I can read, gentrification is when richer people arrive in a place. No wonder why people conflate it with rising prices and displacement of the poor, this is just the "natural" consequence in a market economy where housing is a commodity. Sure, you can (should!) have a policy to mitigate that problem but if you don't, as is usual, it just happens.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > As you say, existing residents of a neighborhood should be able to enjoy the benefits of increased investment and improved conditions in their neighborhood. Is it possible got some of the existing residents to be partly responsible for undesirable conditions? If so, then displacing them seems like a necessary component. Note that I specified “some” residents, and “partly” responsible. A mechanism to cleanly identify and displace only them seems difficult to implement.
aniftythrifrty 3y ago
Being in a big city is supposed to come with opportunities. If people don't take those opportunities and then get priced out, whose fault is that?
- harimau777 3y ago
  Often the fault is that they do not have the resources to take the opportunities or they take the opportunities and still get priced out.
- runako 3y ago
  If you're earnestly curious about this, there is quite a large body of literature specifically about American cities.
hackeraccount 3y ago
Fails twice or can't win - it's hard to figure out which.

jrm4 3y ago

"The norm?" The problem with this analysis is that it prioritizes physical locations and comfortable people over, well, pain? I get that its weird, but it appears as if "society/culture" whatnot has a lot of trouble paying attention to pain unless expressed through fun art. So what people are perhaps subconsciously lamenting is the possibility of really changing things for a lot of people because our focus is at an interesting place being bulldozed by "the rich." Again.

dsr_ 3y ago

The arts are not profitable, except by accident. If you want art in a capitalist society, the options are to make it cheaper or to give it money. The cheapest places to live and work in a city are also the least desirable.

asow92 3y ago

Something that's always confused me in contemporary American discourse is that it's "white flight" when white people move out and "gentrification" when white people move back in. Can someone help me grok this?

lordloki 3y ago
Sure. White people bad.
alistairSH 3y ago
I'm not sure what you're asking. The terms describe inverse/opposite movements of mostly middle-class, mostly white populations. And (very generally) white flight occurred from the 60s to the 90s or 00s. And gentrification became a "big deal" in the 00s and into the 20s (very rough year ranges - varies significantly by city).
- ghaff 3y ago
  >varies significantly by city I'd just add that gentrification of cities has been pretty selective overall. There are a ton of cities that haven't really gentrified or that have gentrified very narrowly (e.g. Detroit) in the US. One of the things that has led to housing affordability problems in that the mostly young professional influx to cities has mostly been to a fairly small selection of cities and has happened over the course of just a couple of decades.
krapp 3y ago
Gentrification is more about class than race - it's entirely possible for all black neighborhoods to be gentrified to cater to a wealthier black establishment at the expense of poor black base. At its core, gentrification is simply the result of capitalist government incentives to maximize tax revenues the way companies maximize profit. Poor people are driven out so that rich people can come in. In the US, the effect of a long history of white supremacist power structures is that class more often than not (although not always) maps to race. White flight, however, is entirely just about white people just wanting to get away from black people.