12 ms·
X.org Server Clears Out Remnants for Supporting Old Compilers
- StimDeck 3y ago[flagged]
- NullPrefix 3y agoDo you really believe that systemd replacement will not be even worse?
- BadBadJellyBean 3y agoPeople really love to hate systemd
- bayindirh 3y agoIt has 10 problems for 7 features it brings. The ratio was worse before. Lastly, I don’t like the “we’re doing something amazing, we need no permission” attitude of its developers, and opaqueness of the thing they built. For more details, dig my comment history.
- Alupis 3y agoWhat problems? "we need no permission" - duh, it's an FOSS project that nobody has to use. Distro maintainers have chosen to use it because it has a significant number of advantages over SysV init scripts and the rest. Don't like systemd? Use another init! Use another distro! Use Arch or any one of the distros that makes it very easy to choose your own components. Or... roll your own distro! People just like to continue beating a dead horse for no reason. This is why "The Year of the Linux Desktop Is Just a Year Away!". People belly ache about anything modern... and stunt development for their niche requirements.
- bayindirh 3y agoAs I said, you need to dig my comment history for that, because I have no time to rewrite everything I said over and over again. Distribution politics is something I’m familiar with enough, and I’m well versed enough in UNIX philosophy and how bending it creates problems (which systemd has gone through, and painfully learnt it again). Another reason that I’m not writing a wall of text is I like horses and not prefer beating them regardless of they are alive or not. However, if it comes to that, I can roll my own distribution, which I did in a professional capacity before. Paralel Sys-V (with dependencies), Mudur and upstart was not slower than systemd, and we were already able to do everything systemd was doing. That’s still true. I’m using systemd on a thousand machines every day, and yes, it has improved, but it’s neither perfect, nor indispensable, yet developers prefer to lock themselves into it. Lastly, free software moves with respect to each other, not by “moving fast and breaking things because feeling like it”. Systemd became better because they had to accept that they can’t bend everything the way they want. Systemd doesn’t live in a vacuum and doesn’t have the luxury and authority to break and build things as they wish and expect everyone adapt to them and worship them as demigods.
- Alupis 3y agoYour sentiment is ridiculous. If Upstart, Mudur or name any of the other many init's were better or became better, distro maintainers would switch. They are some of the most pragmatic people. Politics did not insert systemd into all of your widely-used distros... merit did. Even if that merit isn't what you wanted for your niche requirements. systemd came late to the next-gen init debate and ate everyone else's lunch. Now, the bar is high to replace init's again - meaning the next init system will need to be a leap forward instead of marginal/niche improvements. > I’m using systemd on a thousand machines every day You are a niche user and have niche requirements. Understand that...
- b112 3y agoAbsurd. Systemd was adopted by redhat because it is their baby. And because redhat controls gnome, gnome created a hard depend upon systemd. Which is why the debian vote went te way it did. This is history. Systemd was not adopted due to merit.
- mardifoufs 3y agoIt just werks 99% of the time. The few problems it brings are for the most part basically just annoyances for people used to working with something else.
- b112 3y agoComplexity increases bugs and edge cases, and systemd core init has 300x more lines of code easily. sysvinit is rock solid, and that is easier to do with a very focused, smaller codebase. Even now for example, more than a decade after systemd appeared, simple nfs is impossible for systemd to get right. I get boxes stuck on rebnot, stuck on boot, all with syper simple nfs setups.
- deadbunny 3y agoWorks for me. I have thousands of machines that mount dozens of nfs shares via systemd .mount files with zero issues.
- Repulsion9513 3y agoThat's exactly the point. It's so complex that it's impossible to track down (and thus fix) the cause of any of its problems. What works for you does not work for someone else, and vice versa, because of some seemingly unrelated difference in how their system was built or configured (usually by their distro, often even as a result of difference between upgrade-vs-fresh install).
- bigbillheck 3y agoI wonder if 40 years ago people got as bent out of shape about X as they do now about systemd and find one reason or another why it didn't fit the "unix philosophy".
- linguae 3y agoX has long had critics from Unix fans. There’s an entire chapter devoted to X in The UNIX Hater’s Handbook, and the author of that chapter, Don Hopkins, is a major advocate of Sun NeWS. On the Unix side of things, alternatives to X included Sun NeWS and NeXT’s desktop, which are both Display PostScript-based systems. macOS uses Quartz, which is similar to Display Postscript but uses PDF-based objects instead of interpreting PostScript code for rendering graphics. There are also 8 1/2 and its successor rio from Plan 9, which also addressed issues that the Plan 9 developers had with X. Of course, X won out over all these systems; while X has been MIT-licensed since its early days, none of X’s competitors were open source at the time of their release. NeWS, NeXT’s display system, and Quartz remain closed source, and while Plan 9 was released under an OSI-compatible license in 2002, it wasn’t GPL-compatible; this was rectified in 2014 when Plan 9 was GPL’d, and the licensing became even more liberal in 2021 when it became MIT-licensed.
- pcwalton 3y agoQuartz isn't really similar to Display PostScript. Vector drawing is done client-side and isn't proxied out to the window server like NeWS and NeXT did. Sure, you can use Quartz to draw to a PDF, but you can do that in Cairo too.
- throwanem 3y agoChapter 7 of the UNIX-HATERS Handbook is dedicated to the subject: https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf
- shrubble 3y agoAs a guy who has been running Unix machines since the early 1990s, including pre-1.0 Linux kernels, SVR4.x , Sony NEWS and Sun machines... I have stopped hating systemd. Since I no longer install an OS, if it uses systemd :-) Devuan and FreeBSD meet my needs just fine.
- cpach 3y agoThere are other service managers out there :)
- ttymck 3y agoWhat should replace it?
- cpach 3y agoThe big distros already made their choice. For any distro (or enthusiast) that wants something else, it’s worth reading up on s6/s6-rc.
- wkat4242 3y agoS6 is pretty good yes and their developer was looking for sponsorship to develop a full service manager based on it. Don't think he ever got it though.
- simoncion 3y agoopenrc is nice. I wish I'd been paying attention while the Systemd Cabal (their phrase, not mine) was canvassing and proselytizing... I had a lot of free time back then and could have spent some of it putting the vast majority of the "missing" features from openrc. It's somewhat unfortunate that the switch to systemd killed the debian-on-FreeBSD project. Had they chosen openrc, that project would have been able to continue.
- sdan 3y agoUnrelated but that looks almost like Twitter took this logo and flipped it horizontally
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jbverschoor 3y agoX is a server for every client app
- CyberDildonics 3y agoDid you mean to reply somewhere else? This doesn't seem to relate to what they said.
- seabass-labrax 3y agoI think it's a joke on the claim that Twitter would become an 'everything app' when it became X. The software X11, being a windowing system, actually is a system for running 'every app', in a way.
- snvzz 3y agoX11 is a protocol, not a window manager.
- seabass-labrax 3y agoGood point; I've edited my post so that it's more accurate.
- jbverschoor 3y agoYes that was the joke :)
- tsimionescu 3y agoMaybe they were joking comparing the logo flip with the way X flips the regular notion of client and server (you run the X server on your machine, and you connect the remote app as a client).
- lokar 3y agoAuto play video ad with sound? Seriously?
- purerandomness 3y agoYou probably forgot that you accidentally disabled your ad blocker?
- Modified3019 3y agohttps://github.com/gorhill/uBlock https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock Or if on mobile, it is well worth it to look up adblock options for the browser you use.
- Jasper_ 3y agoThe context here is that someone new randomly showed up on the xorg-devel mailing list, and started asking a ton of questions about the codebase, which has lead to a couple of cleanups. I wouldn't read too much into it. https://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-devel/2024-February/thread.html https://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-devel/2024-February/thread...
- jcranmer 3y agoI was going to say the name was somehow familiar. Then I went searching through the Mozilla bug tracker and found this comment: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58308#c90 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58308#c90.
- bravura 3y agoI understand your frustration with the heady enthusiasm of the poster but: Isn’t it true that Thunderbird sixteen years later still lacks complete and first-class maildir support?
- 15457345234 3y agoWhy does Thunderbird need to support maildir? I just never understood this use case.
- jcrawfordor 3y agoA very traditional way to run a mail system is to have the mailserver store the user's mail in their home directory, typically in either maildir or mbox format. Mail clients can then read mail directly from the same place the mail server stores it, rather than having to maintain their own copy. This is a very handy optimization and a lot of "traditional" (read: TUI) mail clients fully support and, indeed, were primarily designed to be used this way. Common TUI mail clients tend to assume a local maildir or mbox, and accessing mail boxes via IMAP is a feature bolted on later, sometimes a bit awkwardly. A major advantage is that it allows all of the mail tools you might use to operate on the same working copy of your inbox, saving a lot of time synchronizing things. This was a lot more important historically when a typical Unix user would probably have a few different tools they used for mail, like a full-on TUI mailbox viewer and a couple of CLI tools. I don't find it very compelling that Thunderbird needs to add this functionality, because that's a pretty old-fashioned way of running mail that you probably won't see outside of technical universities and other institutions with a very "traditional" approach to their systems. That's the use-case, though, and I do see that if you are in an environment where your mail is already present in your home directory, or you use multiple mail clients, it would be annoying that Thunderbird can't operate this way when a lot of its contemporaries can. It's practically more of an issue, though, because Thunderbird kind of supports it, it's just incomplete. That makes it feel less like a feature Thunderbird doesn't have and more like a bug.
- ok123456 3y agoThat Sun C++ compiler was responsible for many people dropping out at my school.
- jraph 3y agoHow so?
- ok123456 3y agoLack of standards compliance, bugs, and generally unhelpful compilation error reporting. It was a nightmare for the OOP class, which used more compiler features. Couple that with undergraduate sophomores and juniors trying to do things at the last moment, and you'll have a lot of former CS majors.
- jjjjoe 3y agoSounds like the sort of program that'd give you a 0 on an assignment if it worked perfectly but emitted a compiler warning under Sun Studio
- aitchnyu 3y agoI learned C++ with GCC cli in Linux in high school 2007, in Kerala, India. My college had Sun thin client desktop with an extremely outdated GCC so I was helping when teachers were stuck helping. Our college system is such that you take a fixed syllabus for 4 years so people get daunted at first programming subject and nurse their coping mechanisms for 3 years.