3 ms·

> Or maybe they couldn't hack the collegiate level work after coasting through primary and secondary education. Or maybe at 20 years old they didn't yet know w

by lapcat 3y ago

> Or maybe they couldn't hack the collegiate level work after coasting through primary and secondary education. Or maybe at 20 years old they didn't yet know what they wanted to do with the rest of their life but had been pushed into college anyway by overzealous parents and teachers.

sokoloff 3y ago
That's certainly possible. If an infallible oracle told you that was the case and you had two candidates who interviewed otherwise equally in every regard, would you hire the college graduate or the candidate who got railroaded into attending a bit of college and then dropped out? I think the tie goes to the college graduate for over half of the hiring managers, and I don't think that's crazy at all.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > you had two candidates who interviewed otherwise equally in every regard That's different from the original quote, which was simply: > If there are two candidates — one with a degree, one without, “to many hiring managers, it will feel risky,” he said. But your question is interesting. Have you considered that if it's possible for a dropout to performally equally to a degree holder in every perceivable respect, it raises doubts about the value of a degree? Suppose that you had two candidates who interviewed otherwise equally in every regard and also both had degrees, indeed from the same institution. Then how would you choose? By height? Age? Gender? Physical attractiveness?
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    If you have two indistinguishable candidates on relevant dimensions who both passed the interview bar and are the best two candidates you have for one position, literally just flip a coin, hire the winner, and move on.
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > If you have two indistinguishable candidates on relevant dimensions who both passed the interview bar and are the best two candidates you have for one position, literally just flip a coin, hire the winner, and move on. Agreed. Now explain how having completed a degree is a "relevant dimension", unlike height, age, etc. You ignored my first question: "Have you considered that if it's possible for a dropout to performally equally to a degree holder in every perceivable respect, it raises doubts about the value of a degree?" My second question was actually intended to highlight the issue. What you appear to be doing with "I have evidence that the person with a degree can follow rules/policies and track towards a long-term goal with success" is reaching for one arbitrary personal characteristic and inventing an idiosyncratic, non-scientific psychological theory in order to justify discrimination. Others do the same thing with age and gender, for example (younger people and men are just better at programming, they say). You don't know the life story of these people, and there are any number of reasons for someone not completing a degree: monetary problems, family problems, a major illness or injury, natural disaster, etc. Moreover, if you select just based on degree completion, you give job candidates no opportunity to show evidence that they "can follow rules/policies and track towards a long-term goal with success" in ways other than competing a degree. It's simply a bias toward degree holders. By your own admission, you're not using the degree as evidence of job-relevant skills but rather as a psychological, "life story" factor.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        I am biased towards degree holders for programming and other tech roles. It’s not a requirement or some magic talisman of “hire immediately”, but all else equal, I’ll prefer it and, all else equal, I will use it to discriminate (in the “distinguish” or “tell one thing from another” sense). > Now explain how having completed a degree is a "relevant dimension", unlike height, age, etc. As a population, I believe that college graduates almost certainly score higher on measures of intelligence and conscientiousness than non-grads. I believe that's both true and valid for use in selecting employees for roles where intelligence and conscientiousness are useful qualities. > Have you considered that if it's possible for a dropout to [perform] equally to a degree holder in every perceivable respect, it raises doubts about the value of a degree? Of course it's possible for a non-degree holder to outperform a degree holder, or for a Mech E or English major to outperform a Comp Sci grad. That doesn’t mean I think a Comp Sci degree has no relevance or value to an SWE job. You seem to be imagining some boogeyman where “has degree” is treated as the high-order bit rather than what I’ve been consistently saying (and what I think is relevant to the article under discussion): that it’s closer to a tie-breaker (or low-order bit) and a sensible one in many regards. If someone out-interviews another for a role and clears the bar, you hire the out-performer. When you otherwise can’t tell which candidate is stronger and get down to the area where coin flips become a sensible selection mechanism, I think it's wise to choose the degree holder over using the coin. Other people might rely on height or appearance; I can't control what they do.
jmye 3y ago
Then I’d not hire them for being so short-sighted. Your college degree has nothing, at all, to do with the rest of your life unless you want it to and you work to make sure that it does. Seems like this wouldn’t need to be said on a tech board.

by lapcat 3y ago

sokoloff 3y ago

That's certainly possible. If an infallible oracle told you that was the case and you had two candidates who interviewed otherwise equally in every regard, would you hire the college graduate or the candidate who got railroaded into attending a bit of college and then dropped out? I think the tie goes to the college graduate for over half of the hiring managers, and I don't think that's crazy at all.

lapcat 3y ago
> you had two candidates who interviewed otherwise equally in every regard That's different from the original quote, which was simply: > If there are two candidates — one with a degree, one without, “to many hiring managers, it will feel risky,” he said. But your question is interesting. Have you considered that if it's possible for a dropout to performally equally to a degree holder in every perceivable respect, it raises doubts about the value of a degree? Suppose that you had two candidates who interviewed otherwise equally in every regard and also both had degrees, indeed from the same institution. Then how would you choose? By height? Age? Gender? Physical attractiveness?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  If you have two indistinguishable candidates on relevant dimensions who both passed the interview bar and are the best two candidates you have for one position, literally just flip a coin, hire the winner, and move on.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > If you have two indistinguishable candidates on relevant dimensions who both passed the interview bar and are the best two candidates you have for one position, literally just flip a coin, hire the winner, and move on. Agreed. Now explain how having completed a degree is a "relevant dimension", unlike height, age, etc. You ignored my first question: "Have you considered that if it's possible for a dropout to performally equally to a degree holder in every perceivable respect, it raises doubts about the value of a degree?" My second question was actually intended to highlight the issue. What you appear to be doing with "I have evidence that the person with a degree can follow rules/policies and track towards a long-term goal with success" is reaching for one arbitrary personal characteristic and inventing an idiosyncratic, non-scientific psychological theory in order to justify discrimination. Others do the same thing with age and gender, for example (younger people and men are just better at programming, they say). You don't know the life story of these people, and there are any number of reasons for someone not completing a degree: monetary problems, family problems, a major illness or injury, natural disaster, etc. Moreover, if you select just based on degree completion, you give job candidates no opportunity to show evidence that they "can follow rules/policies and track towards a long-term goal with success" in ways other than competing a degree. It's simply a bias toward degree holders. By your own admission, you're not using the degree as evidence of job-relevant skills but rather as a psychological, "life story" factor.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      I am biased towards degree holders for programming and other tech roles. It’s not a requirement or some magic talisman of “hire immediately”, but all else equal, I’ll prefer it and, all else equal, I will use it to discriminate (in the “distinguish” or “tell one thing from another” sense). > Now explain how having completed a degree is a "relevant dimension", unlike height, age, etc. As a population, I believe that college graduates almost certainly score higher on measures of intelligence and conscientiousness than non-grads. I believe that's both true and valid for use in selecting employees for roles where intelligence and conscientiousness are useful qualities. > Have you considered that if it's possible for a dropout to [perform] equally to a degree holder in every perceivable respect, it raises doubts about the value of a degree? Of course it's possible for a non-degree holder to outperform a degree holder, or for a Mech E or English major to outperform a Comp Sci grad. That doesn’t mean I think a Comp Sci degree has no relevance or value to an SWE job. You seem to be imagining some boogeyman where “has degree” is treated as the high-order bit rather than what I’ve been consistently saying (and what I think is relevant to the article under discussion): that it’s closer to a tie-breaker (or low-order bit) and a sensible one in many regards. If someone out-interviews another for a role and clears the bar, you hire the out-performer. When you otherwise can’t tell which candidate is stronger and get down to the area where coin flips become a sensible selection mechanism, I think it's wise to choose the degree holder over using the coin. Other people might rely on height or appearance; I can't control what they do.

jmye 3y ago

Then I’d not hire them for being so short-sighted. Your college degree has nothing, at all, to do with the rest of your life unless you want it to and you work to make sure that it does. Seems like this wouldn’t need to be said on a tech board.