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> being an idealist Could you describe your ideals for why websites should gracefully degrade without JS enabled? It’s not an unpopular view on HN, but from my

> being an idealist Could you describe your ideals for why websites should gracefully degrade without JS enabled? It’s not an unpopular view on HN, but from my perspective as a web developer, JS is a part of browser application just like HTML, and there’s no reason for the website to work if you’ve disabled a part of the browser. I suspect “doesn’t have JavaScript” is being used as a proxy for a lot of other ideals that I do understand, like “should work on as many devices as possible” but that’s a rough correlation and doesn’t make the use of JS inherently bad.

account42 3y ago
It's a lot harder to create bitcoin miners or other malicious things without js so I keep scripts disabled by default and only enabe them where it makes sense. Reimplementing browser functionality in JS also often breaks excpectations as things don't work quite the same for all browsers. It also means browser extensiosn are less likely to be able to deal with the content. Essentially it's like wanting your documents in PDF format even though a executables are also part of the PC platform and you could just ship a custom exectuable that renders your document instead. To me JS is just as absurd.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
J_Shelby_J 3y ago
Chances are I’m on your website for information, mostly text content. Which really doesn’t require JavaScript. So then, most JavaScript on the web is enabling revenue generation rather than improving the user experience. So yeah, disabling JS is a proxy for, “don’t waste my time.” But I agree that it’s not inherently bad, but just mostly bad (for the user.)
SigmundurM 3y ago
A reason people might want to have JavaScript disabled, is because of the immense tracking possibilities that JavaScript has, which can't easily be safe-guarded against. The people who do disable JavaScript completely are admittedly few and far between, but are, I would assume, more common among the Hacker News crowd.
Arch-TK 3y ago
So I've been in numerous situations where having JavaScript enabled was either undesirable or impossible, granted, it's my own fault for using strange platforms like a Nokia N900 or whatever, with strange web browsers. But it's still nice when interactive websites continue to work even in contexts where JavaScript isn't a thing. I always thought of JavaScript as something you use to "upgrade" the web experience, not to build it. Although obviously there are some things you simply can't do without JavaScript and for which there exists literally no alternative. There's also situations where JavaScript is a liability. See, for example, the Tor browser. Especially my ideal is that all functionality which can work without JavaScript should work without JavaScript. So, for example, I am not expecting someone to implement drag-and-drop calendars without JS, but there's no reason why the editing function of a calendar item should fundamentally require JS. That being said, I know this is an idealist position, most companies which work on developing web-applications simply don't care about these niche use-cases where JS isn't an option and as such won't design their web-applications to accommodate those use-cases to save on development costs and time. But, while I am not really a web-developer, whenever I do deal with the web, I usually take a plain-HTML/CSS first approach and add JavaScript later.
tambourine_man 3y ago
Because there's a case for a very useful Web without running a Turing-complete language on the visitor's end. If you just want to consume text, images, audios and videos, follow links and fill in forms (and that's quite a lot and pretty awesome already), you shouldn't need JavaScript.
nashashmi 3y ago
I browse the web without JS. It is a fast easy way to load websites. And some sites with heavy app interaction features need JS. And that is fine. It is the other sites that use JS to figure out if their users have read more than 2 articles that are the problem. Degrade gracefully is a required development skill. Sites need to allow for their pages to work in limited fashion without JS. JS should only be a layer added for interactivity, animation, and app construction. Otherwise, workarounds are great. Is there a way to make this gracefully work? YES!! Instead of using hash tag names, use '?id=example'. And let the script in frame figure out the real destination of the output. Otherwise, the page will load the full site. Also use script to add "target" attribute to links.
- Kalabasa 3y ago
  `?id=thing` is a great idea!
smaudet 3y ago
Supporting as many devices as possible, breaking RESTful APIs, etc. A JS engine pre-supposes many, many things (too many) about a client, stuff like implicit assumptions that "this device has enough power and bandwidth to process my <insert length> javascript, perform appropriate security checks on it, handle this fast enough to service other requests in a timely manner, and also not take over the user's entire computer". Accessibility means you should presume the least number of things possible. There's no sound, no visuals, no powerful cpu (maybe there isn't even a cpu), the device is the only working device from 20 years ago performing some critical function (e.g. government poverty assistance), there's only a couple minutes of power left, the internet is not available currently or quickly, etc. You should never assume you have JS, period, and features should gracefully degrade in the presence of JS engines.
superkuh 3y ago
If you would've told anyone in the year 2000 that it'd become standard practice to blindly execute programs sent to you by anonymous people you don't know you'd get a lecture on why that's stupid. But in 2024 it's standard accepted practice. And that standard has made it so browser developers have to literally prevent the user themselves from having control over their browser because it's too dangerous to do otherwise. The problem with the entire commercial web application ethos, despite it being a perfect fit for for-profit situations, is that it forces the rest of the web stack to gimp itself and centralize itself, CA TLS only, etc, just to keep the auto-code executing people secure. The one horribly insecure user behavior (auto executing random code) takes over from all other use cases and pushes them out. So, we end up with very impressive browsers that are basically OSes but no longer functions as browsers. And that's a problem. Design your own sites so that they progressively enhance when JS is available. When work requires you to make bad JS sites, do so, but only in exchange for money.
- smaudet 3y ago
  Agreed. And treat all JS engine-requiring sites like viruses that need to be executed in protected VMs.
  - jerbear4328 3y ago
    Of course! Actually, for any website that runs JS, in my opinion, we should just automatically forward the JS execution into a virtual machine, it is horrible to allow any random website to just run code directly on our machine. What if we built this virtual sandbox directly into the browser, that way no code could run on our machine, but all websites still work fine? That's revolutionary! Hang on...
    - superkuh 3y ago
      Websites are at least supposedly sandboxed so they are not as much of a risk as running native binaries. But this is getting worse and worse though as browsers expose more and more of their host operating system's functionality (and more and more speculation CPU bugs make sandboxing as a concept appear infeasible). The benefits of using a website instead of a native application are quickly disappearing, while the drawbacks have only been somewhat mitigated.
jamespo 3y ago
Part of this is backend devs and admins like telling frontend devs what to do

account42 3y ago

It's a lot harder to create bitcoin miners or other malicious things without js so I keep scripts disabled by default and only enabe them where it makes sense. Reimplementing browser functionality in JS also often breaks excpectations as things don't work quite the same for all browsers. It also means browser extensiosn are less likely to be able to deal with the content. Essentially it's like wanting your documents in PDF format even though a executables are also part of the PC platform and you could just ship a custom exectuable that renders your document instead. To me JS is just as absurd.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

J_Shelby_J 3y ago

Chances are I’m on your website for information, mostly text content. Which really doesn’t require JavaScript. So then, most JavaScript on the web is enabling revenue generation rather than improving the user experience. So yeah, disabling JS is a proxy for, “don’t waste my time.” But I agree that it’s not inherently bad, but just mostly bad (for the user.)

SigmundurM 3y ago

A reason people might want to have JavaScript disabled, is because of the immense tracking possibilities that JavaScript has, which can't easily be safe-guarded against. The people who do disable JavaScript completely are admittedly few and far between, but are, I would assume, more common among the Hacker News crowd.

Arch-TK 3y ago

So I've been in numerous situations where having JavaScript enabled was either undesirable or impossible, granted, it's my own fault for using strange platforms like a Nokia N900 or whatever, with strange web browsers. But it's still nice when interactive websites continue to work even in contexts where JavaScript isn't a thing. I always thought of JavaScript as something you use to "upgrade" the web experience, not to build it. Although obviously there are some things you simply can't do without JavaScript and for which there exists literally no alternative. There's also situations where JavaScript is a liability. See, for example, the Tor browser. Especially my ideal is that all functionality which can work without JavaScript should work without JavaScript. So, for example, I am not expecting someone to implement drag-and-drop calendars without JS, but there's no reason why the editing function of a calendar item should fundamentally require JS. That being said, I know this is an idealist position, most companies which work on developing web-applications simply don't care about these niche use-cases where JS isn't an option and as such won't design their web-applications to accommodate those use-cases to save on development costs and time. But, while I am not really a web-developer, whenever I do deal with the web, I usually take a plain-HTML/CSS first approach and add JavaScript later.

tambourine_man 3y ago

Because there's a case for a very useful Web without running a Turing-complete language on the visitor's end. If you just want to consume text, images, audios and videos, follow links and fill in forms (and that's quite a lot and pretty awesome already), you shouldn't need JavaScript.

nashashmi 3y ago

I browse the web without JS. It is a fast easy way to load websites. And some sites with heavy app interaction features need JS. And that is fine. It is the other sites that use JS to figure out if their users have read more than 2 articles that are the problem. Degrade gracefully is a required development skill. Sites need to allow for their pages to work in limited fashion without JS. JS should only be a layer added for interactivity, animation, and app construction. Otherwise, workarounds are great. Is there a way to make this gracefully work? YES!! Instead of using hash tag names, use '?id=example'. And let the script in frame figure out the real destination of the output. Otherwise, the page will load the full site. Also use script to add "target" attribute to links.

Kalabasa 3y ago
`?id=thing` is a great idea!

smaudet 3y ago

Supporting as many devices as possible, breaking RESTful APIs, etc. A JS engine pre-supposes many, many things (too many) about a client, stuff like implicit assumptions that "this device has enough power and bandwidth to process my <insert length> javascript, perform appropriate security checks on it, handle this fast enough to service other requests in a timely manner, and also not take over the user's entire computer". Accessibility means you should presume the least number of things possible. There's no sound, no visuals, no powerful cpu (maybe there isn't even a cpu), the device is the only working device from 20 years ago performing some critical function (e.g. government poverty assistance), there's only a couple minutes of power left, the internet is not available currently or quickly, etc. You should never assume you have JS, period, and features should gracefully degrade in the presence of JS engines.

superkuh 3y ago

If you would've told anyone in the year 2000 that it'd become standard practice to blindly execute programs sent to you by anonymous people you don't know you'd get a lecture on why that's stupid. But in 2024 it's standard accepted practice. And that standard has made it so browser developers have to literally prevent the user themselves from having control over their browser because it's too dangerous to do otherwise. The problem with the entire commercial web application ethos, despite it being a perfect fit for for-profit situations, is that it forces the rest of the web stack to gimp itself and centralize itself, CA TLS only, etc, just to keep the auto-code executing people secure. The one horribly insecure user behavior (auto executing random code) takes over from all other use cases and pushes them out. So, we end up with very impressive browsers that are basically OSes but no longer functions as browsers. And that's a problem. Design your own sites so that they progressively enhance when JS is available. When work requires you to make bad JS sites, do so, but only in exchange for money.

smaudet 3y ago
Agreed. And treat all JS engine-requiring sites like viruses that need to be executed in protected VMs.
- jerbear4328 3y ago
  Of course! Actually, for any website that runs JS, in my opinion, we should just automatically forward the JS execution into a virtual machine, it is horrible to allow any random website to just run code directly on our machine. What if we built this virtual sandbox directly into the browser, that way no code could run on our machine, but all websites still work fine? That's revolutionary! Hang on...
  - superkuh 3y ago
    Websites are at least supposedly sandboxed so they are not as much of a risk as running native binaries. But this is getting worse and worse though as browsers expose more and more of their host operating system's functionality (and more and more speculation CPU bugs make sandboxing as a concept appear infeasible). The benefits of using a website instead of a native application are quickly disappearing, while the drawbacks have only been somewhat mitigated.

jamespo 3y ago

Part of this is backend devs and admins like telling frontend devs what to do