4 ms·

Do you think that the gain from this (investment into Saratoga Fab) is useless or that the state pays too much for it? Because I personally believe that this i

Do you think that the gain from this (investment into Saratoga Fab) is useless or that the state pays too much for it? Because I personally believe that this is a decent deal; I hate the idea and it still reeks of protectionism to me, but I think this serves US (taxpayers!) interests decently well. I especially like the investment matching aspect, where the necessary commitment from the company is much larger than the grants, so in the end, they are dropping money into that fab (fudging numbers only gets you so far), and its in their best interest to make it work out. I'd be very careful with characterising this as "wealth transfer", because it seems significantly less questionable than most defense spending to me and even that I wouldn't label as "wealth transfer". Out of personal curiosity: Are you similarly opposed to agriculture subsidies, or do you consider those less problematic (magnitude is somewhat comparable at ~20billion$/year)?

mschuster91 3y ago
> Out of personal curiosity: Are you similarly opposed to agriculture subsidies, or do you consider those less problematic (magnitude is somewhat comparable at ~20billion$/year)? European here, we could and should close our borders for agricultural goods that we can grow ourselves (and you Americans should ban alfalfa exports from California, while you're at it). Ag subsidies are only required because there's no way an US or European farmer can compete with Russian, Ukrainian, South American or African labor and land costs, but we still need farmers to ensure we're self-sufficient and don't end up like many developing nations did once Russia blockaded Ukrainian grain exports.
- tuatoru 3y ago
  As a New Zealander: please don't.
- user_7832 3y ago
  That is an interesting take. If I'm not mistaken in India at least (which one would imagine has fairly cheap labour) sugar and corn is still cheaper imported, although in sugar's case I think the production costs are higher due to water requirements. The sugar import situation had become highly political some years back.
- myrmidon 3y ago
  I agree with you in principle, but I believe this is basically impossible in any democracy because you just get un-elected immediately. Just consider the Polish protests against Ukrainian grain, or the recent German protests against cutting fuel subsidies for agriculture. It just costs too much political capital to do anything about this...
- delfinom 3y ago
  Well, agricultural subsidies are also needed because agriculture has become too efficient. The dairy industry is prime example in both US and EU of agriculture that overproduces so much milk that the US has farmers demanding we sanction Canada for their milk quotas (Canada using the quotas on all their farmers to prevent overproduction) and the EU dumps their milk on Africa and prevents any development of the dairy industry in Africa. The same applies to so many other types of agriculture. Nobody wants to let farmers go out of business for decades now in the Western world. And the rate of "natural attrition" hasn't matched the rate of technological efficiency improvements. There is of course agriculture that isn't as efficient because higher human labor required for things like picking and sorting. But the automation for that is slowly coming.
- nyokodo 3y ago
  > there's no way an US or European farmer can compete with Russian, Ukrainian, South American or African labor and land costs For certain agricultural goods perhaps, but the Midwest is the most productive region for agriculture on the planet. Russia and Ukraine have vast areas of land, they focus on wheat because they mainly have marginal land and a limited growing season and wheat is perfect for that. Most of Africa and much of South America (Argentina being a notable exception) have terrible soil and require significantly more fertilizer to grow crops at scale. Labor is cheaper in those regions but that’s only one factor and it’s why so much farm labor has been automated in the US.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    to this point, the US isn't the single biggest producer, or consumer -- that'd be China. but they are the single largest exporter of grain overall, mostly corn from the midwest and California produce. the Green Revolution hit hard, and most farms are now huge consolidated enterprises. by comparison, in a lot of the world, most farms are smaller and often single family, and in many cases still using old world techniques -- e.g. non-trivial numbers of people plowing their fields with oxen, etc.
earthwalker99 3y ago
If only it were protectionism!
- myrmidon 3y ago
  Which parts of the CHIPS act would you like to see changed? I personally think that its quite difficult to make protectionism happen in a way where you don't prop up an inefficent industry with continuous infusions of tax dollars in the end...

mschuster91 3y ago

> Out of personal curiosity: Are you similarly opposed to agriculture subsidies, or do you consider those less problematic (magnitude is somewhat comparable at ~20billion$/year)? European here, we could and should close our borders for agricultural goods that we can grow ourselves (and you Americans should ban alfalfa exports from California, while you're at it). Ag subsidies are only required because there's no way an US or European farmer can compete with Russian, Ukrainian, South American or African labor and land costs, but we still need farmers to ensure we're self-sufficient and don't end up like many developing nations did once Russia blockaded Ukrainian grain exports.

tuatoru 3y ago
As a New Zealander: please don't.
user_7832 3y ago
That is an interesting take. If I'm not mistaken in India at least (which one would imagine has fairly cheap labour) sugar and corn is still cheaper imported, although in sugar's case I think the production costs are higher due to water requirements. The sugar import situation had become highly political some years back.
myrmidon 3y ago
I agree with you in principle, but I believe this is basically impossible in any democracy because you just get un-elected immediately. Just consider the Polish protests against Ukrainian grain, or the recent German protests against cutting fuel subsidies for agriculture. It just costs too much political capital to do anything about this...
delfinom 3y ago
Well, agricultural subsidies are also needed because agriculture has become too efficient. The dairy industry is prime example in both US and EU of agriculture that overproduces so much milk that the US has farmers demanding we sanction Canada for their milk quotas (Canada using the quotas on all their farmers to prevent overproduction) and the EU dumps their milk on Africa and prevents any development of the dairy industry in Africa. The same applies to so many other types of agriculture. Nobody wants to let farmers go out of business for decades now in the Western world. And the rate of "natural attrition" hasn't matched the rate of technological efficiency improvements. There is of course agriculture that isn't as efficient because higher human labor required for things like picking and sorting. But the automation for that is slowly coming.
nyokodo 3y ago
> there's no way an US or European farmer can compete with Russian, Ukrainian, South American or African labor and land costs For certain agricultural goods perhaps, but the Midwest is the most productive region for agriculture on the planet. Russia and Ukraine have vast areas of land, they focus on wheat because they mainly have marginal land and a limited growing season and wheat is perfect for that. Most of Africa and much of South America (Argentina being a notable exception) have terrible soil and require significantly more fertilizer to grow crops at scale. Labor is cheaper in those regions but that’s only one factor and it’s why so much farm labor has been automated in the US.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  to this point, the US isn't the single biggest producer, or consumer -- that'd be China. but they are the single largest exporter of grain overall, mostly corn from the midwest and California produce. the Green Revolution hit hard, and most farms are now huge consolidated enterprises. by comparison, in a lot of the world, most farms are smaller and often single family, and in many cases still using old world techniques -- e.g. non-trivial numbers of people plowing their fields with oxen, etc.

earthwalker99 3y ago

If only it were protectionism!

myrmidon 3y ago
Which parts of the CHIPS act would you like to see changed? I personally think that its quite difficult to make protectionism happen in a way where you don't prop up an inefficent industry with continuous infusions of tax dollars in the end...