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Remember that the professor isn't teaching an American or native English language work to people in another country. It's not American culture, except that we h

Remember that the professor isn't teaching an American or native English language work to people in another country. It's not American culture, except that we happen to read it a lot (for good reason); it's not English language except incidentally. The context of the Iliad, ancient Greece, is completely alien to the modern US, just as it is to modern China. A Chinese language translation would be just as valid. Modern Americans and Chinese have far more in common with each other, of course. The only argument is that many modern English words have ancient Greek roots, but that just makes the Chinese translator's job harder.

retrac 3y ago
> The context of the Iliad, ancient Greece, is completely alien to the modern US, just as it is to modern China I'm not sure about that. We do not still have the same emphasis on the classics as a century ago, but western societies still inherit a lot culturally from ancient Greece. Here in Canada, I was taught Greek mythology in school. We examined a play by Sophocles in high school literature. Civics class inevitably brings up Athenian democracy. Philosophy began with Thales. Music began with Pythagoras. Or to put it another way: the Simpsons once did a parody of the Odyssey. That only works if the audience knows the story of Odysseus. Which of course, they do. Most westerners know it, implicitly, in much the same way the average Chinese person knows Water Margin even if they've never read it.
- dexwiz 3y ago
  Interest in the classics like these isn’t a solid lineage. It’s mostly an invention of Neoclassicism, and was enabled by rediscovery of the texts in Islamic libraries. But neoclassicism still strongly influences North American culture, specifically our civil buildings. It was the counter culture movement when the USA split from Britain. While a lineage is assumed I do agree they are relatively alien to today’s culture.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - empath-nirvana 3y ago
    They aren't "classics", they're pre-classical epic poetry. There _was_ a solid lineage of interest in greek and roman philosophy that lasted all throughout the middle ages, and there were latin translations of parts of the Iliad that were taught. The complete Iliad and Odyssey weren't rediscovered from Islamic libraries, but they were carried west by Byzantine scholars. Neo-classicism wasn't a counter culture from Britain -- it was just as popular in London as it was in Washington -- it's not like England was living in the dark ages while America was in the enlightenment. Homer is a fairly core part of western culture and you see references to it everywhere. Somewhat famously in O Brother Where Art There, but there's a long list of movies and novels that have referenced it. And idioms from it like "a Trojan horse" and "achilles heel" are all over western culture. It's not a biblical-level cultural touch stone, but it's fairly important.
    - veqq 3y ago
      > The complete Iliad and Odyssey weren't rediscovered from Islamic libraries, but they were carried west by Byzantine scholars To expand, the 8th century Irish were still copying Greek texts and brought them to Germany (Schottenklöster). Southern Italy used Greek through the 12th century, with the Sicilian Norman kings' courts composing a lot of Greek poetry. Islamic civilizations cared little for the literary heritage of Greece, unfortunately. (Once upon a time, I dug deeply trying to learn how they handled engagement with Paganism. Answer: They didn't, because they didn't read nor translate Homer at al.) They focused on mathematics and science, their achievements came into Europe through Spain (e.g. the Toledo school) around the 12th century, thus Latinized names like Avicenna, Averroes... https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/multilingualism-in-the-graecoroman-worlds/greek-in-early-medieval-ireland/65B777B96E57C6F853470B5557E1AF9E https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/multilingualism-in-... https://www.jstor.org/stable/20503890 https://www.jstor.org/stable/20503890
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        An essential detail of the story: The Islamic world was the only source of Aristotle, whose writings were lost to Europe through the Middle Ages.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  I wrote the GP comment. Thanks for your comment; it clarifies my thinking and expands my perspective. Let's not conflate (and I failed to differentiate) Ancient Greece and 'Classical' Greece. The Odyssey and Iliad are older than Classical Greece, the term I'm using for the world of the philosophers, mathematicians, playwrights, etc. I understand that that the two works were core texts for the Classical Greeks, but my impression is that they were from prior 'civilization' (maybe not the perfect term), perhaps like Beowulf is to people in the modern anglo world. The world of the Ancient Greeks is completely alien to ours, IMHO. Its culture, morality, behavior, customs, etc. are all so different that all we have in common with it as what any humans have in common. Read the Odyssey from a modern perspective - it's bizarre, inexplicable in modern context. For example, Odysseus is a complete failure as a person, a leader, a spouse - he only survives and accomplishes anything because Athena bails him out. The only way to understand it is to try to grasp the Ancient Greek context, where it does make sense. That makes it very interesting and valuable, but it's alien. Still, I overstated my point in the GP. Alien or not, it is part of our culture, even if mostly indirectly - generations have read it, have been influenced by it, and what it influenced was passed down to us, and we pass it to the next generation. There's no question of that. > We examined a play by Sophocles in high school literature. Civics class inevitably brings up Athenian democracy. Philosophy began with Thales. Music began with Pythagoras. That's 'Classical' Greece.
baybal2 3y ago
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colechristensen 3y ago
The Romans absorbed a ridiculous amount of Greek culture and also founded London 2000 years ago. Virtually everyone of high education from the English speaking countries and their cultural parents were at least aware of the Greek epics, if not educated with them. The White House looks like a Greek temple for gods sake. Greek culture is everywhere in the English speaking world, they are very much one of the primary influential ancestors of our culture in a way that it absolutely is not in the Chinese speaking world.
- mrangle 3y ago
  The Romans saw themselves as the real life continuity of Greek mythology, specifically as a result of the events of the Iliad by way of the Aenid. Which indicates the same for Roman Britain / London. In addition to the mythology indicating the same for Britain. If you query the right people who have it as part of their culture to track historical continuity, they will point out the relevant structural parallels between Ancient Rome and the USA (and therefore between Ancient Greece and the USA).
- anthk 3y ago
  Not so much compared to the Southern Europe, which we basically are Romans 2.0 considering most of the architecture, customs and laws.
duped 3y ago
> The context of the Iliad, ancient Greece, is completely alien to the modern US, just as it is to modern China I was taught Greek mythology in grade school, read the Odyssey and Iliad in middle school English, Antigone and Oedipus Rex in high school, and the story of Orpheus and Eurydice was a recurring theme in some college courses but that's a bit specific. Our philosophy courses in highschool and college started with Plato. And within larger culture, there was the animated film Hercules, the Percy Jackson novels, and a broadway musical based on Orpheus and Eurydice that swept the Tony awards in the last twenty years. American culture is obsessed with ancient Greece and its stories.
- Auracle 3y ago
  > American culture is obsessed with ancient Greece and its stories. Because it’s so damned cool. I’ll never understand how Abrahamic religions won the “war” over Greek/Roman gods. Plus a pantheon makes sense - trying to explain away babies born with cancer is pretty hard in Abrahamic religions. Not so much when you have various gods that don’t really care about you and just do their own thing.
  - rini17 3y ago
    It seems to me like an historical accident caused by pervasive brutality of living in Roman empire. Pantheon might have made sense to explain it, but people were primed to expect a savior nevertheless. The story of Jesus was a perfect fit and the Jewish monotheism got imported with it.
    - anthk 3y ago
      More like Aquinas and the early Christians adapted the Middle Eastern tales to the Roman/Greek culture based people, because if you told us the Europeans couldn't neither eat pork or drink wine, the people would revolt in a breeze.
462436347 3y ago
> ancient Greece, is completely alien to the modern US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_(disambiguation)#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_(disambiguation)#United_S...

retrac 3y ago

> The context of the Iliad, ancient Greece, is completely alien to the modern US, just as it is to modern China I'm not sure about that. We do not still have the same emphasis on the classics as a century ago, but western societies still inherit a lot culturally from ancient Greece. Here in Canada, I was taught Greek mythology in school. We examined a play by Sophocles in high school literature. Civics class inevitably brings up Athenian democracy. Philosophy began with Thales. Music began with Pythagoras. Or to put it another way: the Simpsons once did a parody of the Odyssey. That only works if the audience knows the story of Odysseus. Which of course, they do. Most westerners know it, implicitly, in much the same way the average Chinese person knows Water Margin even if they've never read it.

dexwiz 3y ago
Interest in the classics like these isn’t a solid lineage. It’s mostly an invention of Neoclassicism, and was enabled by rediscovery of the texts in Islamic libraries. But neoclassicism still strongly influences North American culture, specifically our civil buildings. It was the counter culture movement when the USA split from Britain. While a lineage is assumed I do agree they are relatively alien to today’s culture.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  They aren't "classics", they're pre-classical epic poetry. There _was_ a solid lineage of interest in greek and roman philosophy that lasted all throughout the middle ages, and there were latin translations of parts of the Iliad that were taught. The complete Iliad and Odyssey weren't rediscovered from Islamic libraries, but they were carried west by Byzantine scholars. Neo-classicism wasn't a counter culture from Britain -- it was just as popular in London as it was in Washington -- it's not like England was living in the dark ages while America was in the enlightenment. Homer is a fairly core part of western culture and you see references to it everywhere. Somewhat famously in O Brother Where Art There, but there's a long list of movies and novels that have referenced it. And idioms from it like "a Trojan horse" and "achilles heel" are all over western culture. It's not a biblical-level cultural touch stone, but it's fairly important.
  - veqq 3y ago
    > The complete Iliad and Odyssey weren't rediscovered from Islamic libraries, but they were carried west by Byzantine scholars To expand, the 8th century Irish were still copying Greek texts and brought them to Germany (Schottenklöster). Southern Italy used Greek through the 12th century, with the Sicilian Norman kings' courts composing a lot of Greek poetry. Islamic civilizations cared little for the literary heritage of Greece, unfortunately. (Once upon a time, I dug deeply trying to learn how they handled engagement with Paganism. Answer: They didn't, because they didn't read nor translate Homer at al.) They focused on mathematics and science, their achievements came into Europe through Spain (e.g. the Toledo school) around the 12th century, thus Latinized names like Avicenna, Averroes... https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/multilingualism-in-the-graecoroman-worlds/greek-in-early-medieval-ireland/65B777B96E57C6F853470B5557E1AF9E https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/multilingualism-in-... https://www.jstor.org/stable/20503890 https://www.jstor.org/stable/20503890
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      An essential detail of the story: The Islamic world was the only source of Aristotle, whose writings were lost to Europe through the Middle Ages.
wolverine876 3y ago
I wrote the GP comment. Thanks for your comment; it clarifies my thinking and expands my perspective. Let's not conflate (and I failed to differentiate) Ancient Greece and 'Classical' Greece. The Odyssey and Iliad are older than Classical Greece, the term I'm using for the world of the philosophers, mathematicians, playwrights, etc. I understand that that the two works were core texts for the Classical Greeks, but my impression is that they were from prior 'civilization' (maybe not the perfect term), perhaps like Beowulf is to people in the modern anglo world. The world of the Ancient Greeks is completely alien to ours, IMHO. Its culture, morality, behavior, customs, etc. are all so different that all we have in common with it as what any humans have in common. Read the Odyssey from a modern perspective - it's bizarre, inexplicable in modern context. For example, Odysseus is a complete failure as a person, a leader, a spouse - he only survives and accomplishes anything because Athena bails him out. The only way to understand it is to try to grasp the Ancient Greek context, where it does make sense. That makes it very interesting and valuable, but it's alien. Still, I overstated my point in the GP. Alien or not, it is part of our culture, even if mostly indirectly - generations have read it, have been influenced by it, and what it influenced was passed down to us, and we pass it to the next generation. There's no question of that. > We examined a play by Sophocles in high school literature. Civics class inevitably brings up Athenian democracy. Philosophy began with Thales. Music began with Pythagoras. That's 'Classical' Greece.

baybal2 3y ago

[dead]

colechristensen 3y ago

The Romans absorbed a ridiculous amount of Greek culture and also founded London 2000 years ago. Virtually everyone of high education from the English speaking countries and their cultural parents were at least aware of the Greek epics, if not educated with them. The White House looks like a Greek temple for gods sake. Greek culture is everywhere in the English speaking world, they are very much one of the primary influential ancestors of our culture in a way that it absolutely is not in the Chinese speaking world.

mrangle 3y ago
The Romans saw themselves as the real life continuity of Greek mythology, specifically as a result of the events of the Iliad by way of the Aenid. Which indicates the same for Roman Britain / London. In addition to the mythology indicating the same for Britain. If you query the right people who have it as part of their culture to track historical continuity, they will point out the relevant structural parallels between Ancient Rome and the USA (and therefore between Ancient Greece and the USA).
anthk 3y ago
Not so much compared to the Southern Europe, which we basically are Romans 2.0 considering most of the architecture, customs and laws.

duped 3y ago

> The context of the Iliad, ancient Greece, is completely alien to the modern US, just as it is to modern China I was taught Greek mythology in grade school, read the Odyssey and Iliad in middle school English, Antigone and Oedipus Rex in high school, and the story of Orpheus and Eurydice was a recurring theme in some college courses but that's a bit specific. Our philosophy courses in highschool and college started with Plato. And within larger culture, there was the animated film Hercules, the Percy Jackson novels, and a broadway musical based on Orpheus and Eurydice that swept the Tony awards in the last twenty years. American culture is obsessed with ancient Greece and its stories.

Auracle 3y ago
> American culture is obsessed with ancient Greece and its stories. Because it’s so damned cool. I’ll never understand how Abrahamic religions won the “war” over Greek/Roman gods. Plus a pantheon makes sense - trying to explain away babies born with cancer is pretty hard in Abrahamic religions. Not so much when you have various gods that don’t really care about you and just do their own thing.
- rini17 3y ago
  It seems to me like an historical accident caused by pervasive brutality of living in Roman empire. Pantheon might have made sense to explain it, but people were primed to expect a savior nevertheless. The story of Jesus was a perfect fit and the Jewish monotheism got imported with it.
  - anthk 3y ago
    More like Aquinas and the early Christians adapted the Middle Eastern tales to the Roman/Greek culture based people, because if you told us the Europeans couldn't neither eat pork or drink wine, the people would revolt in a breeze.

462436347 3y ago

> ancient Greece, is completely alien to the modern US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_(disambiguation)#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_(disambiguation)#United_S...