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Meanwhile, you completely ignore China using EU money to build its offensive capabilities against Taiwan.

jorvi 3y ago
China must have some magical coffers that they are simultaneously losing $50 billion+ a year on subsidizing Chinese EV makers.. but somehow also earning money on it and spending it on national defense? I don’t like the direction China is headed either, but anyone with even an ounce of pragmaticness realizes that we still live in a world of global trade. Also, the US is trading with China to the tune of $750 000+ billion a year. So, I guess they should cut off all that trade to stop funding their future adversary.. or perhaps it is not so simple?
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  Huh? China has something like $4 trillion in reserves plug ongoing taxation, it can and has subsidised EVs and other industries more than that. The point is that we've made a mistake and we're in a pickle. We're dependent on our adversary and we should be looking to get out of that situation in a way that doesn't disadvantage ourselves further. Are you just saying there's nothing that can be done? Just looking to change direction is a useful step.
  - jorvi 3y ago
    > Huh? China has something like $4 trillion in reserves plug ongoing taxation, it can and has subsidised EVs and other industries more than that. That is not the thing I was giving a counterpoint to though. That was "EU trade is funding aggression against Taiwan" (with the implication that importing cheap EVs would increase the net inflow of capital). > The point is that we've made a mistake and we're in a pickle. We're dependent on our adversary and we should be looking to get out of that situation in a way that doesn't disadvantage ourselves further. > Are you just saying there's nothing that can be done? Just looking to change direction is a useful step. But at least here, we aren't in a pickle. China has little leverage here, and they can't easily increase that leverage either. Let me simplify my point: if China wants to massively subsidize the electrification of the EU's car population, why not let them? They won't reach global market dominance, and it both speeds up our electrification and saves our citizens' money. The only one's getting pinched are the shareholders of EU car companies. I feel similarly about solar panels, even though China has achieved market dominance there. They cannot leverage their position there, because solar panels are not a prohibitively difficult product to set up a supply chain for, and the demand for them is somewhat elastic. It would slow down the closure of fossil power plants and maybe force a few old one's to reopen, but that's it. With EVs, buyers would just switch over to other brands and part of the global supply would get redirected as EU prices go up. I worry much more about China's grip on rare metal processing and mid tier chip production. The rare metals go into "everything" hot right now, and everyone is so focused on high-end chip production that they're forgetting how many everyday products run on "low" density chips.
    - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
      > saves our citizens' money Yikes, there it is. All comes down to €. Why should current day greed be more important than the future? > They won't reach global market dominance Hmm, just like they didn't reach dominance in manufacturing? Sigh.
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  Subsidies don't mean zero profit. It can even more profit if volume increases and others are driven out of the market. > Oh yeah, the US is trading with China to the tune of $750 000+ billion a year. So, I guess they should cut off all that trade to stop funding their future adversary.. or perhaps it is not so simple. Again literally just https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...
  - jorvi 3y ago
    Right right, improving society by not electrifying and instead staying with ICE cars. Get real.
    - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - blackoil 3y ago
    If subsidies are profitable, EU should do that for "Made in EU" cars. The customer won't have to bear the burn and economy/politics will be happy. US is already doing that, though without getting the benefit.

China must have some magical coffers that they are simultaneously losing $50 billion+ a year on subsidizing Chinese EV makers.. but somehow also earning money on it and spending it on national defense? I don’t like the direction China is headed either, but anyone with even an ounce of pragmaticness realizes that we still live in a world of global trade. Also, the US is trading with China to the tune of $750 000+ billion a year. So, I guess they should cut off all that trade to stop funding their future adversary.. or perhaps it is not so simple?

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
Huh? China has something like $4 trillion in reserves plug ongoing taxation, it can and has subsidised EVs and other industries more than that. The point is that we've made a mistake and we're in a pickle. We're dependent on our adversary and we should be looking to get out of that situation in a way that doesn't disadvantage ourselves further. Are you just saying there's nothing that can be done? Just looking to change direction is a useful step.
- jorvi 3y ago
  > Huh? China has something like $4 trillion in reserves plug ongoing taxation, it can and has subsidised EVs and other industries more than that. That is not the thing I was giving a counterpoint to though. That was "EU trade is funding aggression against Taiwan" (with the implication that importing cheap EVs would increase the net inflow of capital). > The point is that we've made a mistake and we're in a pickle. We're dependent on our adversary and we should be looking to get out of that situation in a way that doesn't disadvantage ourselves further. > Are you just saying there's nothing that can be done? Just looking to change direction is a useful step. But at least here, we aren't in a pickle. China has little leverage here, and they can't easily increase that leverage either. Let me simplify my point: if China wants to massively subsidize the electrification of the EU's car population, why not let them? They won't reach global market dominance, and it both speeds up our electrification and saves our citizens' money. The only one's getting pinched are the shareholders of EU car companies. I feel similarly about solar panels, even though China has achieved market dominance there. They cannot leverage their position there, because solar panels are not a prohibitively difficult product to set up a supply chain for, and the demand for them is somewhat elastic. It would slow down the closure of fossil power plants and maybe force a few old one's to reopen, but that's it. With EVs, buyers would just switch over to other brands and part of the global supply would get redirected as EU prices go up. I worry much more about China's grip on rare metal processing and mid tier chip production. The rare metals go into "everything" hot right now, and everyone is so focused on high-end chip production that they're forgetting how many everyday products run on "low" density chips.
  - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
    > saves our citizens' money Yikes, there it is. All comes down to €. Why should current day greed be more important than the future? > They won't reach global market dominance Hmm, just like they didn't reach dominance in manufacturing? Sigh.
cscurmudgeon 3y ago
Subsidies don't mean zero profit. It can even more profit if volume increases and others are driven out of the market. > Oh yeah, the US is trading with China to the tune of $750 000+ billion a year. So, I guess they should cut off all that trade to stop funding their future adversary.. or perhaps it is not so simple. Again literally just https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...
- jorvi 3y ago
  Right right, improving society by not electrifying and instead staying with ICE cars. Get real.
  - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
    [flagged]
- blackoil 3y ago
  If subsidies are profitable, EU should do that for "Made in EU" cars. The customer won't have to bear the burn and economy/politics will be happy. US is already doing that, though without getting the benefit.