4 ms·

Well, not quite -- https://github.com/grahamking/demeter-deploy/blob/master/seed/src/main.rs https://github.com/grahamking/demeter-deploy/blob/master/see... is

Well, not quite -- https://github.com/grahamking/demeter-deploy/blob/master/seed/src/main.rs https://github.com/grahamking/demeter-deploy/blob/master/see... is the Rust version of a program that used to be written entirely in assembly, and it seems that it ends up being the same size. There's a few bits of asm in amongst the Rust, but it's still definitely a Rust program. 800 lines of ASM file reduced to 600 lines of Rust, including comments and constants in both cases. He might be pushing the limits, and everything's unsafe Rust, but unsafe Rust is still safer than raw assembly.

vacuity 3y ago
> unsafe Rust is still safer than raw assembly I don't think I would go that far. Assembly doesn't have undefined behavior, and especially not with the strict constraints around references as in Rust. The safe/unsafe dichotomy in Rust is better than only using C or C++ when there are concise, robust encapsulations around broken invariants.
- lmm 3y ago
  > Assembly doesn't have undefined behavior Certainly some assembly languages do.
  - vacuity 3y ago
    Which ones? I assume at least the 1:1 machine code kind doesn't, and you mean something more like bytecode, but it'd be interesting if I'm wrong on that count.
    - lmm 3y ago
      > I assume at least the 1:1 machine code kind doesn't They do, because the machine code sometimes has undefined behaviour. E.g. on the 6502 famously 1/4 of the instructions are undefined (all of the 0b.....11 ones), and many of them behave differently on different implementations of the processor (up to and including halting it, or placing it in a strange state).
      - flohofwoe 3y ago
        Most of those undocumented instructions are what in C would be called "implementation defined behaviour" and have properly defined results, they might just differ between specific CPU models. There's only a very small number of unstable instructions which have unpredictable results (caused by "cross talk" due to incomplete instruction decoding).
        lmm 3y ago
        Halting the CPU would also generally have to be modelled as undefined behaviour in the standard.
    - flohofwoe 3y ago
      The 6502 has one (or some?) "illegal" instructions where the effects are unpredictable. Only case I can think of though.
- vardump 3y ago
  > I don't think I would go that far. Assembly doesn't have undefined behavior As someone who has written a fair amount of assembler over the years... Yes, it doesn't have undefined behavior, but it also lacks practically all guard rails and safeties. The smallest error and you might do things like completely messing up your call stack – just need to forget one "POP" or mess up with stack pointer adjustment. Or for example a computed jump in the middle of an instruction. You can create bugs that can be almost impossible to figure out from a crash dump that even something as low level as C will effectively protect you from doing.
  - vacuity 3y ago
    I wonder if those issues can't be somewhat mitigated with a linter or interactive emulator. In any case, I think assembly is more uniformly difficult (and not portable!), while unsafe Rust generally feels less painless but you might have no idea which invariants you need to enforce unless you're very knowledgeable. Definitely don't write a whole application in either!
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  You could also say it doesn't have defined behavior.

vacuity 3y ago

> unsafe Rust is still safer than raw assembly I don't think I would go that far. Assembly doesn't have undefined behavior, and especially not with the strict constraints around references as in Rust. The safe/unsafe dichotomy in Rust is better than only using C or C++ when there are concise, robust encapsulations around broken invariants.

lmm 3y ago
> Assembly doesn't have undefined behavior Certainly some assembly languages do.
- vacuity 3y ago
  Which ones? I assume at least the 1:1 machine code kind doesn't, and you mean something more like bytecode, but it'd be interesting if I'm wrong on that count.
  - lmm 3y ago
    > I assume at least the 1:1 machine code kind doesn't They do, because the machine code sometimes has undefined behaviour. E.g. on the 6502 famously 1/4 of the instructions are undefined (all of the 0b.....11 ones), and many of them behave differently on different implementations of the processor (up to and including halting it, or placing it in a strange state).
    - flohofwoe 3y ago
      Most of those undocumented instructions are what in C would be called "implementation defined behaviour" and have properly defined results, they might just differ between specific CPU models. There's only a very small number of unstable instructions which have unpredictable results (caused by "cross talk" due to incomplete instruction decoding).
      - lmm 3y ago
        Halting the CPU would also generally have to be modelled as undefined behaviour in the standard.
  - flohofwoe 3y ago
    The 6502 has one (or some?) "illegal" instructions where the effects are unpredictable. Only case I can think of though.
vardump 3y ago
> I don't think I would go that far. Assembly doesn't have undefined behavior As someone who has written a fair amount of assembler over the years... Yes, it doesn't have undefined behavior, but it also lacks practically all guard rails and safeties. The smallest error and you might do things like completely messing up your call stack – just need to forget one "POP" or mess up with stack pointer adjustment. Or for example a computed jump in the middle of an instruction. You can create bugs that can be almost impossible to figure out from a crash dump that even something as low level as C will effectively protect you from doing.
- vacuity 3y ago
  I wonder if those issues can't be somewhat mitigated with a linter or interactive emulator. In any case, I think assembly is more uniformly difficult (and not portable!), while unsafe Rust generally feels less painless but you might have no idea which invariants you need to enforce unless you're very knowledgeable. Definitely don't write a whole application in either!
Brian_K_White 3y ago
You could also say it doesn't have defined behavior.