6 ms·

Tesla is basically against a whole country which has the world's second largest economy. The cheapest model of BYD is around $8,000 and the BYD will get much mu

Tesla is basically against a whole country which has the world's second largest economy. The cheapest model of BYD is around $8,000 and the BYD will get much much more subsidies from the government. Big China companies like BYD, Huawei can literally get infinite funds and other resources from the government.

alephnerd 3y ago
More so the fact that BYD's battery division is an absolute gold mine like AWS is for Amazon. BYD is the primary battery supplier for most consumer electronics (you're iPhone is using a BYD battery for example)
- feverzsj 3y ago
  Yes, with infinite resources, cheapest price, no one can beat them.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Or mostly the fact that Apple decided to make BYD their primary battery supplier in the early 2000s over dozens of other companies. Batteries are a low margin high skill industry. Battery makers in SK/JP/US/TW decided to go upmarket where margins are much higher and competitive moats stronger (due to R&D, IP, and/or procurement requirements)
roncesvalles 3y ago
Meanwhile the US government bipartisanly hates Tesla.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  Sounds like a problem the CEO of Tesla should work on. Or is he too busy Tweeting?
  - kibwen 3y ago
    He's too busy schmoozing his hand-picked board to give him billions in bonuses for dutifully doing the job of--let me check my notes here--abusing ketamine all day while pretending to be CEO of multiple companies.
    - qwerasdf5 3y ago
      A contractual agreement (that Elon met) is 'schmoozing'?
      - dragontamer 3y ago
        A contract written by yourself (aka: Largest shareholder) given to a board you picked (aka: Chairman of the Board of Directors), giving yourself a payraise (aka: about the CEO's bonus pay) is obviously null and void. You can't just give yourself a pay-raise. Even if you're the largest shareholder, the controlling member of the board of directors, and CEO of a company. If you accept the public's money, then the _other_ shareholders, even small minority stakes, have a say in the matter. If you don't like the fact that Delaware looks out for smaller shareholders, you can I guess move out to other states or something. But for the most part, people accept the fact that public companies have rules that go above-and-beyond normal. Wanton acts of corporate corruption aren't tolerated in Delaware. -------------- The rule in play here is shareholder fiduciary duty. The Board of Directors failed to represent the needs of all of its shareholders like they are legally obligated to do. A large pay-bonus to a CEO who already controls a large stake in Tesla (who'd benefit from Tesla improving anyway) is obviously a bad move. No other CEO in history had such a large share-increase bonus. In any case, looking out for the little guy is a deeply American value. We understand the problems associated with Tyranny of the Majority. If you want to fully own a company, then stay a private-business (like the Mars family), don't come begging to the public for public money.
        riehwvfbk 3y ago
        Looking out for the little guy is an American value? Walmart and Amazon warehouse employees would like a word with those mythical Americans.
- m2mdas2 3y ago
  Defense likes him that is enough I think. They understand Musk's value. I also think that he is having a parallel with Tony Stark persona as a visionary businessman who goes against establishment to achieve his goals.
eunos 3y ago
Well the current Premier was a strong backer for Giga Shanghai as well
jorvi 3y ago
I hate that we could have $8000[0] EVs in the EU, but Volkswagen+Germany will push the EU to add so many tariffs because they can’t match the price-quality ratio. Generally I love the EU, but occasionally.. sigh. [0] Probably $12500 with transportation, purchase tax etc
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  Did EU not learn from funding Russia. It is not a good idea to empower dictatorships.
  - jorvi 3y ago
    I sure hope you didn’t type this on a mobile device, or any PC made after the 2000s.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
      You're making his point.
      - jorvi 3y ago
        His point is overly dogmatic. With the Russian gas dependence, shutting down supply meant industries would shut down and (with a freak winter) people might be unable to heat their homes. If Chinese EVs become common in the EU market, it diminishes EU car manufacturing and then China does a rug pull and stops exporting to the EU.. American, Korean and Japanese EV manufacturers will fill the gap in marketshare, perhaps at a slight premium but still well below current EV prices. What horror. And it isn’t like Volkswagen will roll over and die. They’ll just face market pressure to innovate and become more efficient.
        cscurmudgeon 3y ago
        Meanwhile, you completely ignore China using EU money to build its offensive capabilities against Taiwan.
russli1993 3y ago
no they don't. For end product sales, China's EV subsidies is the same for all NEVs, Tesla enjoys that too. Chinese provincial governments may provide lumps sum cash/grants/preferential loans/cheaper land for specific projects, factories built in there, and Tesla got that too when it built gigafactory in Shanghai. BWM got preferential land prices and taxes when it build more factories in Liaoning. And these kinds of governmental assistances exist in many countries, including Germany, SK, USA. Another way Chinese government "help" a company is by equity investments. But that is not a blank check and endless funnel of cash. And btw, Chinese government money is also taxpayer money, it's not endless, government is looking for return on whatever benefits in increased revenue in the future, it has to be effective investment. And look at all the uproar when Chinese batteries makers trying to build factories and provide employment in the USA. So, yes, Chinese government give the same subsidies for Tesla. What does Chinese companies get in the USA? The most discriminatory and certainly illegal rule that is IRA under WTO. IRA subsides are barred legally from giving to companies, not just headquartered in China, but also any Chinese origin entity or any entity in the world that holds 25% more shares, and regardless where the product is made. And not just for end product, any materials, components made by Chinese entities or any entities in the world where Chinese entity holds 25% share regardless where it's made. Does your South Korean anode company board have a Chinese national and Chinese entity invested in your company? You are dead. For that Chinese board member, he/she is forced to resign, for the Chinese investment, is forced to be sold. It's the most discriminatory trade rule ever made. Then there is all the fearmongering, consistent witch hunt against Chinese origin companies and entrepreneurs by the government and congress. It's not even against a company anymore, it's against the entrepreneurs, the founders who got a Chinese name. Anything that has Chinese name in it, you get roasted, shamed, defamed, treated like cockroaches by people in congress. Right now, if you are Chinese person, want work on semiconductors, telecom, batteries, AI, mobile phone apps, internet, biotech, regardless where you are based, US government will defame you, wants everyone in the world to shun you off, to treat you like cockroaches. See what happened to tusimple, Zoom, G42.ai, or so many companies that I can't list here? On a tangent, Shou Chew was in congress and members of congress continued to shame his Singaporean nationality, not even aware Singaporean and Chinese are different. In China, Tesla and Elon Muskc got big publicity and essentially "encourage you to buy" message from the government. What does Chinese entrepreneurs get in the USA? I am using strong language, but this is the truth. No need to suger coat this. And for Huawei, funny before the USA's witch hunt against Huawei, Chinese telecoms were buying from Ericsson, Nokia, Cisco en mass. And now god forbid we support our own companies when USA, and it coerces other countries to trying to just blatantly kill off Huawei, chop off its head. Huawei may sound like same name to you, but for us its 100K workers and families, who have kids to feed, grandparents to take care of. Then millions of people dependent on Huawei's supply chain, sales networks, service centers. It's one thing if a company doesn't innovate and got out competed in the market. It's totally another when a foreign government attacks the company with the goal of completely chopping its head off. Fair competition is fine, but only when the environment is fair. I am gladly buy an iphone if is better than huawei if they are on level playing field. But right now, I will gladly buy a mate 60 pro even if its weaker than iphone. Western media play up all Chinese people are super nationalistic blah blah. It's foreign governments that is attacking our people and families that is making people more nationalistic. US government has sanctioned more than 1000 Chinese entities, trade war, tech war, 10s of millions of people are directly or indirectly affected by US government. There is a joke on Chinese internet now that when US sanctions a Chinese company it's a stamp of approval. By the way, no one has accelerated Chinese domestic semiconductor supply chain faster than US sanctions. No one has promoted Chinese people to buy Chinese products better than foreign governments. Huawei essentially got a martyred brand image after the USA's treatment, the struggle to survive against all odds, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, the Independence Day story.
ok123456 3y ago
Tesla gets tax subsidies in China, too.
tim333 3y ago
Tesla is one of the largest car producers in China. It's partnered with them as much as against them.
- MuffinFlavored 3y ago
  I'm going to guess the argument is "this may not remain true over the next 5-10 years as BYD/others take over and Tesla loses marketshare"
  - aurareturn 3y ago
    But that's likely only because Tesla got outcompeted.

alephnerd 3y ago

More so the fact that BYD's battery division is an absolute gold mine like AWS is for Amazon. BYD is the primary battery supplier for most consumer electronics (you're iPhone is using a BYD battery for example)

feverzsj 3y ago
Yes, with infinite resources, cheapest price, no one can beat them.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Or mostly the fact that Apple decided to make BYD their primary battery supplier in the early 2000s over dozens of other companies. Batteries are a low margin high skill industry. Battery makers in SK/JP/US/TW decided to go upmarket where margins are much higher and competitive moats stronger (due to R&D, IP, and/or procurement requirements)

roncesvalles 3y ago

Meanwhile the US government bipartisanly hates Tesla.

dragontamer 3y ago
Sounds like a problem the CEO of Tesla should work on. Or is he too busy Tweeting?
- kibwen 3y ago
  He's too busy schmoozing his hand-picked board to give him billions in bonuses for dutifully doing the job of--let me check my notes here--abusing ketamine all day while pretending to be CEO of multiple companies.
  - qwerasdf5 3y ago
    A contractual agreement (that Elon met) is 'schmoozing'?
    - dragontamer 3y ago
      A contract written by yourself (aka: Largest shareholder) given to a board you picked (aka: Chairman of the Board of Directors), giving yourself a payraise (aka: about the CEO's bonus pay) is obviously null and void. You can't just give yourself a pay-raise. Even if you're the largest shareholder, the controlling member of the board of directors, and CEO of a company. If you accept the public's money, then the _other_ shareholders, even small minority stakes, have a say in the matter. If you don't like the fact that Delaware looks out for smaller shareholders, you can I guess move out to other states or something. But for the most part, people accept the fact that public companies have rules that go above-and-beyond normal. Wanton acts of corporate corruption aren't tolerated in Delaware. -------------- The rule in play here is shareholder fiduciary duty. The Board of Directors failed to represent the needs of all of its shareholders like they are legally obligated to do. A large pay-bonus to a CEO who already controls a large stake in Tesla (who'd benefit from Tesla improving anyway) is obviously a bad move. No other CEO in history had such a large share-increase bonus. In any case, looking out for the little guy is a deeply American value. We understand the problems associated with Tyranny of the Majority. If you want to fully own a company, then stay a private-business (like the Mars family), don't come begging to the public for public money.
      - riehwvfbk 3y ago
        Looking out for the little guy is an American value? Walmart and Amazon warehouse employees would like a word with those mythical Americans.
m2mdas2 3y ago
Defense likes him that is enough I think. They understand Musk's value. I also think that he is having a parallel with Tony Stark persona as a visionary businessman who goes against establishment to achieve his goals.

eunos 3y ago

Well the current Premier was a strong backer for Giga Shanghai as well

jorvi 3y ago

I hate that we could have $8000[0] EVs in the EU, but Volkswagen+Germany will push the EU to add so many tariffs because they can’t match the price-quality ratio. Generally I love the EU, but occasionally.. sigh. [0] Probably $12500 with transportation, purchase tax etc

cscurmudgeon 3y ago
Did EU not learn from funding Russia. It is not a good idea to empower dictatorships.
- jorvi 3y ago
  I sure hope you didn’t type this on a mobile device, or any PC made after the 2000s.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    You're making his point.
    - jorvi 3y ago
      His point is overly dogmatic. With the Russian gas dependence, shutting down supply meant industries would shut down and (with a freak winter) people might be unable to heat their homes. If Chinese EVs become common in the EU market, it diminishes EU car manufacturing and then China does a rug pull and stops exporting to the EU.. American, Korean and Japanese EV manufacturers will fill the gap in marketshare, perhaps at a slight premium but still well below current EV prices. What horror. And it isn’t like Volkswagen will roll over and die. They’ll just face market pressure to innovate and become more efficient.
      - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
        Meanwhile, you completely ignore China using EU money to build its offensive capabilities against Taiwan.

russli1993 3y ago

no they don't. For end product sales, China's EV subsidies is the same for all NEVs, Tesla enjoys that too. Chinese provincial governments may provide lumps sum cash/grants/preferential loans/cheaper land for specific projects, factories built in there, and Tesla got that too when it built gigafactory in Shanghai. BWM got preferential land prices and taxes when it build more factories in Liaoning. And these kinds of governmental assistances exist in many countries, including Germany, SK, USA. Another way Chinese government "help" a company is by equity investments. But that is not a blank check and endless funnel of cash. And btw, Chinese government money is also taxpayer money, it's not endless, government is looking for return on whatever benefits in increased revenue in the future, it has to be effective investment. And look at all the uproar when Chinese batteries makers trying to build factories and provide employment in the USA. So, yes, Chinese government give the same subsidies for Tesla. What does Chinese companies get in the USA? The most discriminatory and certainly illegal rule that is IRA under WTO. IRA subsides are barred legally from giving to companies, not just headquartered in China, but also any Chinese origin entity or any entity in the world that holds 25% more shares, and regardless where the product is made. And not just for end product, any materials, components made by Chinese entities or any entities in the world where Chinese entity holds 25% share regardless where it's made. Does your South Korean anode company board have a Chinese national and Chinese entity invested in your company? You are dead. For that Chinese board member, he/she is forced to resign, for the Chinese investment, is forced to be sold. It's the most discriminatory trade rule ever made. Then there is all the fearmongering, consistent witch hunt against Chinese origin companies and entrepreneurs by the government and congress. It's not even against a company anymore, it's against the entrepreneurs, the founders who got a Chinese name. Anything that has Chinese name in it, you get roasted, shamed, defamed, treated like cockroaches by people in congress. Right now, if you are Chinese person, want work on semiconductors, telecom, batteries, AI, mobile phone apps, internet, biotech, regardless where you are based, US government will defame you, wants everyone in the world to shun you off, to treat you like cockroaches. See what happened to tusimple, Zoom, G42.ai, or so many companies that I can't list here? On a tangent, Shou Chew was in congress and members of congress continued to shame his Singaporean nationality, not even aware Singaporean and Chinese are different. In China, Tesla and Elon Muskc got big publicity and essentially "encourage you to buy" message from the government. What does Chinese entrepreneurs get in the USA? I am using strong language, but this is the truth. No need to suger coat this. And for Huawei, funny before the USA's witch hunt against Huawei, Chinese telecoms were buying from Ericsson, Nokia, Cisco en mass. And now god forbid we support our own companies when USA, and it coerces other countries to trying to just blatantly kill off Huawei, chop off its head. Huawei may sound like same name to you, but for us its 100K workers and families, who have kids to feed, grandparents to take care of. Then millions of people dependent on Huawei's supply chain, sales networks, service centers. It's one thing if a company doesn't innovate and got out competed in the market. It's totally another when a foreign government attacks the company with the goal of completely chopping its head off. Fair competition is fine, but only when the environment is fair. I am gladly buy an iphone if is better than huawei if they are on level playing field. But right now, I will gladly buy a mate 60 pro even if its weaker than iphone. Western media play up all Chinese people are super nationalistic blah blah. It's foreign governments that is attacking our people and families that is making people more nationalistic. US government has sanctioned more than 1000 Chinese entities, trade war, tech war, 10s of millions of people are directly or indirectly affected by US government. There is a joke on Chinese internet now that when US sanctions a Chinese company it's a stamp of approval. By the way, no one has accelerated Chinese domestic semiconductor supply chain faster than US sanctions. No one has promoted Chinese people to buy Chinese products better than foreign governments. Huawei essentially got a martyred brand image after the USA's treatment, the struggle to survive against all odds, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, the Independence Day story.

ok123456 3y ago

Tesla gets tax subsidies in China, too.

tim333 3y ago

Tesla is one of the largest car producers in China. It's partnered with them as much as against them.

MuffinFlavored 3y ago
I'm going to guess the argument is "this may not remain true over the next 5-10 years as BYD/others take over and Tesla loses marketshare"
- aurareturn 3y ago
  But that's likely only because Tesla got outcompeted.