4 ms·

Old London Bridge

134 points by OJFord 3y ago

sgt 3y ago
Sites like that should always include a plain old link to download a high resolution image of the painting itself. Instead I have to scroll back and forth between text bubbles to try to get into some detail.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  Here's the image: https://english-heritage.shorthandstories.com/old-london-bridge/assets/TyhWbbyzoH/old-london-bridge-de-jongh-scrollpoints.jpeg https://english-heritage.shorthandstories.com/old-london-bri... Uploaded to Wikipedia: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Old-london-bridge-de-jongh.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Old-london-bridge-de...
benjiweber 3y ago
The most unfamiliar aspect is the frost fairs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Thames_frost_fairs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Thames_frost_fairs
mattlondon 3y ago
This is hosted in Kenwood House which is a free entry if you ever find yourself in London on work or whatever. It is right on the edge of Hampstead Heath which is some fairly large (~800 acres) and fairly wild heathland and forest that is a good place for long walks or running (quite hilly in places, great views (legally protected!) over London as a result), quite close to the center of London (~10-15 mins away from Kings Cross on the tube). Do check it out if you want some outdoor space or a good place for a run when visiting London
- jsmith99 3y ago
  It’s very worth visiting - a Palladian mansion with a big art collection that includes some gems such as one of Rembrandt’s greatest self portraits.
DrBazza 3y ago
Also in the same area and little known - the Tower (of London) subway, and also parts of the City and South London Railway Thames tunnel still exist that terminated at King William Street https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/rare-film-from-inside-the-tower-subway-tunnel-61318/ https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/rare-film-from-inside-t... https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/stories/engineering/james-greathead-and-tunnels-under-london https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/stories/engineering/j... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_South_London_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_South_London_Railway
- kilroy123 3y ago
  That is very cool. I didn't know about this. I like walking through the Greenwich Foot Tunnel; while not as old as the Tower of London Subway, it is very old, and it's wild for me to walk under the Thames.
  - NeoTar 3y ago
    A few years back (probably more like a decade now) they closed the London Overground for engineers works over a May Bank Holiday weekend, and opened up the Thames Tunnel for visitors - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Tunnel - that is to say the original Mark Brunel tunnel from 1843, original a foot passage, but now a part of the London Overground network. I was lucky enough to attend. It was an interesting experience - from what I recall a lot of the original ornamentation has been lost, but there are some preserved sections.
    - Milner08 3y ago
      They did it this year (or the end of last year maybe) as well :)
  - DrBazza 3y ago
    There's more about the City + South London tunnels, but the best I can find at the moment is this: > The original running tunnels north of Borough station remain, although when the Jubilee line extension was built in the late 1990s, the old southbound tunnel was cut through as part of the construction works at London Bridge station in order to provide the lift shaft situated at the south end of the Northern line platforms. These running tunnels are now used as a ventilation shaft for the station and the openings for several adits to the old running tunnels can be seen in the roofs of the Northern line platform tunnels and in the central concourse between them. A construction shaft between London Bridge and King William Street, beneath Old Swan Wharf, now functions as a pump shaft for the disused sections of the running tunnels. It is no longer possible to walk through between the two stations as the old C&SLR running tunnels have been blocked off with concrete bulkheads on both sides of the Thames. The tunnels were further severed by upgrades to Bank station, as the construction shaft for the new Northern line tunnel, located in Arthur Street, cuts straight through the approach tunnel to King William Street station, with the station site itself linked to the new tunnel via a ventilation adit.[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_William_Street_tube_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_William_Street_tube_stati... IIRC there's also some other "tunnels" under the Thames around the London Bridge area that are old Victorian pneumatic pipes to deliver mail+parcels.
Lio 3y ago
I was always intrigued by the motivation for building houses on the bridge itself. It seems like one of those interzone areas that shouldn't exist but does[1]. The usually listed reason is that space inside the City walls was at a premium but I think the really interesting point is that the bridge itself was considered inside the City walls. Like a peninsular jutting out of the City. Also, it was said that with the amount of foot traffic, cattle, etc on the bridge it could take you 15 to 30 minutes to cross. So that kind of makes sense to have shops and pubs on there to service the 138 or so dwellings. - 1. That probably comes from reading William Gibson's Bridge Trilogy.
- TomMasz 3y ago
  Rochester, NY (where I live) had a bridge over the Genesee River that had buildings on both sides well into the 20th century. They were finally removed in the 1960s(!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Street_Bridge_(Rochester,_New_York) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Street_Bridge_(Rochester,...
  - Lio 3y ago
    That's a great example, thanks. From the timeline that bridge was built in 1857 so I guess still dominated by foot traffic. It might be better for traffic capacity but I think Rochester must have lost something special when they removed the bridge buildings.
- wongarsu 3y ago
  In modern times any street with so much foot traffic is lined with shops to take advantage of all the potential customers. Remember that when walking you have plenty of time to take in the shop window, and taking a quick detour into a shop or pub isn't much effort. Especially if traffic is moving slow anyways. It's not at all comparable to driving past in a car. I imagine the same reason made it attractive to have shops on one of the main streets into London, even if it happened to be a bridge. And once you are erecting a building for the shop or pub, why not add a couple stories to house the shop owner, workers, or anyone willing to pay rent for living inside the city wall?
- 3y ago
mulhoon 3y ago
I enjoyed the interactivity and the "severed heads of traitors, displayed on spikes as a warning to citizens and visitors."
mr_toad 3y ago
It had a church on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_of_St_Thomas_on_the_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_of_St_Thomas_on_the_Bri...
donalhunt 3y ago
Some small pieces of the bridge still exist. See https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/medieval-london-bridge https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/medieval-london-bridge My son and I made a point of visiting it when we were in London last year. Was a tad disappointing to see it surrounded by scaffolding at the time.
CAPSLOCKSSTUCK 3y ago
> The 19th-century London Bridge (famously referred to in TS Eliot’s The Waste Land) survived for little more than a century before it in turn was replaced, in the 1970s, by the present bridge. The 19th-century bridge was sold and re-erected in Arizona. Wait, so someone literally got sold a bridge?
- robbie-c 3y ago
  The idea of London Bridge moving along the Panama Canal causes a type error in my brain
- delichon 3y ago
  His name was Robert McCulloch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_City) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_Cit... Growing up in the '70s we used to boat camp on the Arizona shore of Lake Havasu, and after days in the bush we'd boat to the closest civilization, this little tourist town, and be tourists and gape at the bridge, then go back to camping. Good times.
- Gare 3y ago
  Technically, only granite facing was reused. The core is newly built, made of reinforced concrete.
- ggm 3y ago
  My mother told a shaggy dog story about the re-construction being cheap spanish speaking labour and a mixup with the stones chalked "L" She also said the buyer genuinely didn't know what he'd bought, but I still have my doubts. I have an aquatint or mezzotint of the 19th century bridge I am very fond of but I can find no provenance for. It must have been mass produced but short of demounting it and looking for details, its just a nice print in a frame.
  - Gare 3y ago
    > There is a popular rumor that the bridge was bought in the mistaken belief that it was London's more recognizable Tower Bridge, but the allegation was vehemently denied by both McCulloch and Ivan Luckin, who arranged the bridge's sale.
ggm 3y ago
I imagine if it had been retained, tourism UK would be calling it the Ponte Vecchio of the north. Maybe the european parliament can start using spikes on the bridge in Florence for the public displays?
jgord 3y ago
Lovely painting.. horrible interactive web tour experience, imo. At least let us see the whole painting first, without overlays... [ ugh, I guess it does, but it feels like its moving because the rest of the page is scrolling. ] DeJong is arguably not quite in the same league as other top Dutch masters.. but would be handy to have a link to DeJongs other work. Clearly some of his drawings are superb, I handn't seen those before. Trying not to be negative about the web app .. yet be truthful, so I tried another link : https://artsandculture.google.com/story/the-guitar-player/kQKyc0LgiM8UIg https://artsandculture.google.com/story/the-guitar-player/kQ... .. which I found to be nausea inducing. Sometimes tech features get in the way.
- sgt 3y ago
  My thoughts exactly!
- sixothree 3y ago
  Here you go. https://english-heritage.shorthandstories.com/old-london-bridge/assets/TyhWbbyzoH/old-london-bridge-de-jongh-scrollpoints.jpeg https://english-heritage.shorthandstories.com/old-london-bri... FWIW I liked the article apart from the scroll effects, which didn't kill the experience for me.
nevster 3y ago
Currently reading Quicksilver - this ties in nicely
- roomey 3y ago
  Neil Stephenson really brought this to life. The amount of research that must have gone into the series!
larusso 3y ago
Fitting video from Jay Foreman. I love his unfinished London video series. https://youtu.be/u5CguqywlBk?si=5EHkyayaMtk7UUPV https://youtu.be/u5CguqywlBk?si=5EHkyayaMtk7UUPV and https://youtu.be/pWZ9ZVRQ0Nw?si=B2CeiFIab12Ip1tc https://youtu.be/pWZ9ZVRQ0Nw?si=B2CeiFIab12Ip1tc

134 points by OJFord 3y ago

sgt 3y ago

Sites like that should always include a plain old link to download a high resolution image of the painting itself. Instead I have to scroll back and forth between text bubbles to try to get into some detail.

Symbiote 3y ago
Here's the image: https://english-heritage.shorthandstories.com/old-london-bridge/assets/TyhWbbyzoH/old-london-bridge-de-jongh-scrollpoints.jpeg https://english-heritage.shorthandstories.com/old-london-bri... Uploaded to Wikipedia: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Old-london-bridge-de-jongh.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Old-london-bridge-de...

benjiweber 3y ago

The most unfamiliar aspect is the frost fairs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Thames_frost_fairs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Thames_frost_fairs

mattlondon 3y ago

This is hosted in Kenwood House which is a free entry if you ever find yourself in London on work or whatever. It is right on the edge of Hampstead Heath which is some fairly large (~800 acres) and fairly wild heathland and forest that is a good place for long walks or running (quite hilly in places, great views (legally protected!) over London as a result), quite close to the center of London (~10-15 mins away from Kings Cross on the tube). Do check it out if you want some outdoor space or a good place for a run when visiting London

jsmith99 3y ago
It’s very worth visiting - a Palladian mansion with a big art collection that includes some gems such as one of Rembrandt’s greatest self portraits.

DrBazza 3y ago

Also in the same area and little known - the Tower (of London) subway, and also parts of the City and South London Railway Thames tunnel still exist that terminated at King William Street https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/rare-film-from-inside-the-tower-subway-tunnel-61318/ https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/rare-film-from-inside-t... https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/stories/engineering/james-greathead-and-tunnels-under-london https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/stories/engineering/j... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_South_London_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_South_London_Railway

kilroy123 3y ago
That is very cool. I didn't know about this. I like walking through the Greenwich Foot Tunnel; while not as old as the Tower of London Subway, it is very old, and it's wild for me to walk under the Thames.
- NeoTar 3y ago
  A few years back (probably more like a decade now) they closed the London Overground for engineers works over a May Bank Holiday weekend, and opened up the Thames Tunnel for visitors - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Tunnel - that is to say the original Mark Brunel tunnel from 1843, original a foot passage, but now a part of the London Overground network. I was lucky enough to attend. It was an interesting experience - from what I recall a lot of the original ornamentation has been lost, but there are some preserved sections.
  - Milner08 3y ago
    They did it this year (or the end of last year maybe) as well :)
- DrBazza 3y ago
  There's more about the City + South London tunnels, but the best I can find at the moment is this: > The original running tunnels north of Borough station remain, although when the Jubilee line extension was built in the late 1990s, the old southbound tunnel was cut through as part of the construction works at London Bridge station in order to provide the lift shaft situated at the south end of the Northern line platforms. These running tunnels are now used as a ventilation shaft for the station and the openings for several adits to the old running tunnels can be seen in the roofs of the Northern line platform tunnels and in the central concourse between them. A construction shaft between London Bridge and King William Street, beneath Old Swan Wharf, now functions as a pump shaft for the disused sections of the running tunnels. It is no longer possible to walk through between the two stations as the old C&SLR running tunnels have been blocked off with concrete bulkheads on both sides of the Thames. The tunnels were further severed by upgrades to Bank station, as the construction shaft for the new Northern line tunnel, located in Arthur Street, cuts straight through the approach tunnel to King William Street station, with the station site itself linked to the new tunnel via a ventilation adit.[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_William_Street_tube_station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_William_Street_tube_stati... IIRC there's also some other "tunnels" under the Thames around the London Bridge area that are old Victorian pneumatic pipes to deliver mail+parcels.

Lio 3y ago

I was always intrigued by the motivation for building houses on the bridge itself. It seems like one of those interzone areas that shouldn't exist but does[1]. The usually listed reason is that space inside the City walls was at a premium but I think the really interesting point is that the bridge itself was considered inside the City walls. Like a peninsular jutting out of the City. Also, it was said that with the amount of foot traffic, cattle, etc on the bridge it could take you 15 to 30 minutes to cross. So that kind of makes sense to have shops and pubs on there to service the 138 or so dwellings. - 1. That probably comes from reading William Gibson's Bridge Trilogy.

TomMasz 3y ago
Rochester, NY (where I live) had a bridge over the Genesee River that had buildings on both sides well into the 20th century. They were finally removed in the 1960s(!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Street_Bridge_(Rochester,_New_York) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Street_Bridge_(Rochester,...
- Lio 3y ago
  That's a great example, thanks. From the timeline that bridge was built in 1857 so I guess still dominated by foot traffic. It might be better for traffic capacity but I think Rochester must have lost something special when they removed the bridge buildings.
wongarsu 3y ago
In modern times any street with so much foot traffic is lined with shops to take advantage of all the potential customers. Remember that when walking you have plenty of time to take in the shop window, and taking a quick detour into a shop or pub isn't much effort. Especially if traffic is moving slow anyways. It's not at all comparable to driving past in a car. I imagine the same reason made it attractive to have shops on one of the main streets into London, even if it happened to be a bridge. And once you are erecting a building for the shop or pub, why not add a couple stories to house the shop owner, workers, or anyone willing to pay rent for living inside the city wall?
3y ago

mulhoon 3y ago

I enjoyed the interactivity and the "severed heads of traitors, displayed on spikes as a warning to citizens and visitors."

mr_toad 3y ago

It had a church on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_of_St_Thomas_on_the_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_of_St_Thomas_on_the_Bri...

donalhunt 3y ago

Some small pieces of the bridge still exist. See https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/medieval-london-bridge https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/medieval-london-bridge My son and I made a point of visiting it when we were in London last year. Was a tad disappointing to see it surrounded by scaffolding at the time.

CAPSLOCKSSTUCK 3y ago

> The 19th-century London Bridge (famously referred to in TS Eliot’s The Waste Land) survived for little more than a century before it in turn was replaced, in the 1970s, by the present bridge. The 19th-century bridge was sold and re-erected in Arizona. Wait, so someone literally got sold a bridge?

robbie-c 3y ago
The idea of London Bridge moving along the Panama Canal causes a type error in my brain
delichon 3y ago
His name was Robert McCulloch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_City) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_Cit... Growing up in the '70s we used to boat camp on the Arizona shore of Lake Havasu, and after days in the bush we'd boat to the closest civilization, this little tourist town, and be tourists and gape at the bridge, then go back to camping. Good times.
Gare 3y ago
Technically, only granite facing was reused. The core is newly built, made of reinforced concrete.
ggm 3y ago
My mother told a shaggy dog story about the re-construction being cheap spanish speaking labour and a mixup with the stones chalked "L" She also said the buyer genuinely didn't know what he'd bought, but I still have my doubts. I have an aquatint or mezzotint of the 19th century bridge I am very fond of but I can find no provenance for. It must have been mass produced but short of demounting it and looking for details, its just a nice print in a frame.
- Gare 3y ago
  > There is a popular rumor that the bridge was bought in the mistaken belief that it was London's more recognizable Tower Bridge, but the allegation was vehemently denied by both McCulloch and Ivan Luckin, who arranged the bridge's sale.

ggm 3y ago

I imagine if it had been retained, tourism UK would be calling it the Ponte Vecchio of the north. Maybe the european parliament can start using spikes on the bridge in Florence for the public displays?

jgord 3y ago

Lovely painting.. horrible interactive web tour experience, imo. At least let us see the whole painting first, without overlays... [ ugh, I guess it does, but it feels like its moving because the rest of the page is scrolling. ] DeJong is arguably not quite in the same league as other top Dutch masters.. but would be handy to have a link to DeJongs other work. Clearly some of his drawings are superb, I handn't seen those before. Trying not to be negative about the web app .. yet be truthful, so I tried another link : https://artsandculture.google.com/story/the-guitar-player/kQKyc0LgiM8UIg https://artsandculture.google.com/story/the-guitar-player/kQ... .. which I found to be nausea inducing. Sometimes tech features get in the way.

sgt 3y ago
My thoughts exactly!
sixothree 3y ago
Here you go. https://english-heritage.shorthandstories.com/old-london-bridge/assets/TyhWbbyzoH/old-london-bridge-de-jongh-scrollpoints.jpeg https://english-heritage.shorthandstories.com/old-london-bri... FWIW I liked the article apart from the scroll effects, which didn't kill the experience for me.

nevster 3y ago

Currently reading Quicksilver - this ties in nicely

roomey 3y ago
Neil Stephenson really brought this to life. The amount of research that must have gone into the series!

larusso 3y ago

Fitting video from Jay Foreman. I love his unfinished London video series. https://youtu.be/u5CguqywlBk?si=5EHkyayaMtk7UUPV https://youtu.be/u5CguqywlBk?si=5EHkyayaMtk7UUPV and https://youtu.be/pWZ9ZVRQ0Nw?si=B2CeiFIab12Ip1tc https://youtu.be/pWZ9ZVRQ0Nw?si=B2CeiFIab12Ip1tc