9 ms·

An easy first step would be to not hold a sci-fi conference in a totalitarian dictatorship. Why couldn't they have just held it in Japan or South Korea or Taiwa

An easy first step would be to not hold a sci-fi conference in a totalitarian dictatorship. Why couldn't they have just held it in Japan or South Korea or Taiwan instead?

lukev 3y ago
Because the site of Worldcon is selected by members (i.e, sci-fi fans) of which China has _many_. In fact, this whole debacle has hurt them the most since it seems many/most Chinese authors were excluded by default since the amateur self-appointed censors couldn't actually be bothered to figure out what disqualification criteria would be, just that it could be "sensitive to China."
- wrs 3y ago
  My impression is that’s how it works. There’s never a clear definition from the government, so whoever’s doing the self-censoring has to guess (and err on the safe side).
- domador 3y ago
  Maybe the site of Worldcon is what should be "censored" (vetted and altered) by the organizers.
  - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
    There's not really any organizers who could make that decision. The organizers are just whoever won the vote to run the conference that year. There's no actual organization that persists from year to year.
    - michaelmrose 3y ago
      Maybe there shouldn't be one one next year then. I know I plan to ignore them thereafter no matter what they do and I hardly think I'm the only one.
    - persnickety 3y ago
      That selection criterion means there is some continuity and persistent organization. Otherwise I could announce a Worldcon unilaterally and no one would have the grounds to stop me.
      - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
        The only standing committee is the Mark Protection Committee which has the power to enforce trademarks and nothing else. They couldn't do anything to change the location.
        toyg 3y ago
        Surely they could refuse to endorse the event, retracting any right to the "Hugo Awards" brand. The event would have to use another name, which would highlight the schism. Obviously a dangerous game, as the committee would attract more scrutiny on its composition and role as ultimate owner of the brand, but probably worth considering as a nuclear option in case, say, "fans" vote for Saudi Arabia next year (yes, "fans" - I'm sure any semi-competent state actor can easily stuff ballots in polls like these...).
        TheCoelacanth 3y ago
        That's the equivalent of the "Mike Pence can make Donald Trump president" theory. They administer the trademark according to the rules laid out in the WSFS constitution; they don't decide who is allowed to use the trademark. The Chengdu bid won the vote legitimately. They would have been massively overstepping their authority to try to prevent it. It's unlikely they could have even won a court case if they tried to prevent it.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- whatshisface 3y ago
  >the amateur self-appointed censors couldn't actually be bothered to figure out what disqualification criteria would be ...as opposed to professional government-appointed censors?
  - pototo666 3y ago
    Good point. Besides, there is no detailed guidebook on censorship in China. Every organization (media, social media) has to guess what the gov wants to censor. As a result, every organization tends to overdo it. Because 1). you never know if you miss one target that should be censored and 2). What is OK today might not be OK tomorrow. Censorship in China is an art (or joke).
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      That sounds like a very effective way to eliminate the oblique protests so common in Soviet fiction.
- squarefoot 3y ago
  > Because the site of Worldcon is selected by members (i.e, sci-fi fans) of which China has _many_. One could argue that when parties involved have so different population numbers, probably using the percentage of votes relative to a country population, instead of just number of votes would be a better solution.
- baq 3y ago
  China also has many CCP members, some of them are told to vote for China everywhere possible. It ends exactly like this every time. Remember the NBA scandal?
techsupporter 3y ago
At each WorldCon, host committees of science fiction groups from cities put up bids to host the WorldCon to be held two years hence. In 2021, Chengdu and Manitoba had committees on the roster. WorldCon voters chose Chengdu. The problem is one of effective power: do you tell people who live in these regimes, "sorry, you cannot participate in this culture because your government is bad." How much pull do they have to change things, especially this sort of thing? Or do you say "you can participate, but only at a lower tier." Either way is going to put some people into an out-group. Maybe that's the right thing to do--paradox of tolerance, for instance--for the rest of the people in the group or culture. Maybe it isn't. I know it would hurt pretty badly to be a science fiction enthusiast in China, perhaps even someone who really does not like what their government does, and not be able to participate. On the other hand, it hurts to be potentially on the list for your work's most prestigious honor, only to be "disqualified" because you "might" have written about something that isn't permitted in the host country you couldn't have predicted.
- nkrisc 3y ago
  “Sorry, your government won’t let you participate. Take it up with them.” Only the Chinese people can change China.
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  > Do you tell people who live in these regimes, "sorry, you cannot participate in this culture because your government is bad?" Yes. Sorry, that's how it goes. If I'm running a dance competition, I should not hold the award ceremony in a country which outlaws certain types of dance, lest they arrest some of my attendees. Similarly, if I'm running a literature competition, I shouldn't hold it in a country that outlaws certain types of literature. This isn't about trying to change anything per se, it's just practical.
  - maxglute 3y ago
    You can buy the books in PRC. They're not outlawed. The issue is when authors politics are obvious source of controversy relative to local politics. Hugo is not stranger to such drama. Except fallout from ideological drama is extra bad for business in PRC. 8B RMB / 1B USD of deals was made at Chengdu convention, everyone tends to self censor / avoid blowback when that kind of money is involved.
bloqs 3y ago
This seems to be the only sensible response to this... what do people expect
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
roenxi 3y ago
[flagged]
- gtirloni 3y ago
  Tibet, Taiwan and the countries around the South China Sea would like to have word with you.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mulmen 3y ago
  > Their foreign policy for example seems to be much gentler than the average. Is this one of those Excel bugs where you forgot to select the entire column?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- justinclift 3y ago
  > But on the international stage China has been one of the best actors we have ... What are the examples of this you're thinking of?
  - roenxi 3y ago
    If you go through the major wars at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict... and look at the wiki pages for each of them the name "China" is conspicuously absent from the little info boxes on the right. That is more than can be said for the US, NATO, African nations and Middle Easterners. It is nice having a region of the world where the major powers in the area believe in peace. Then even in the "Wars" section they have a limited showing give their relative economic power. I see them getting involved against Boko Haram and an the Ethiopia civil conflict as an arms supplier.
    - inglor_cz 3y ago

An easy first step would be to not hold a sci-fi conference in a totalitarian dictatorship. Why couldn't they have just held it in Japan or South Korea or Taiwan instead?

lukev 3y ago

Because the site of Worldcon is selected by members (i.e, sci-fi fans) of which China has _many_. In fact, this whole debacle has hurt them the most since it seems many/most Chinese authors were excluded by default since the amateur self-appointed censors couldn't actually be bothered to figure out what disqualification criteria would be, just that it could be "sensitive to China."

wrs 3y ago
My impression is that’s how it works. There’s never a clear definition from the government, so whoever’s doing the self-censoring has to guess (and err on the safe side).
domador 3y ago
Maybe the site of Worldcon is what should be "censored" (vetted and altered) by the organizers.
- TheCoelacanth 3y ago
  There's not really any organizers who could make that decision. The organizers are just whoever won the vote to run the conference that year. There's no actual organization that persists from year to year.
  - michaelmrose 3y ago
    Maybe there shouldn't be one one next year then. I know I plan to ignore them thereafter no matter what they do and I hardly think I'm the only one.
  - persnickety 3y ago
    That selection criterion means there is some continuity and persistent organization. Otherwise I could announce a Worldcon unilaterally and no one would have the grounds to stop me.
    - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
      The only standing committee is the Mark Protection Committee which has the power to enforce trademarks and nothing else. They couldn't do anything to change the location.
      - toyg 3y ago
        Surely they could refuse to endorse the event, retracting any right to the "Hugo Awards" brand. The event would have to use another name, which would highlight the schism. Obviously a dangerous game, as the committee would attract more scrutiny on its composition and role as ultimate owner of the brand, but probably worth considering as a nuclear option in case, say, "fans" vote for Saudi Arabia next year (yes, "fans" - I'm sure any semi-competent state actor can easily stuff ballots in polls like these...).
        TheCoelacanth 3y ago
        That's the equivalent of the "Mike Pence can make Donald Trump president" theory. They administer the trademark according to the rules laid out in the WSFS constitution; they don't decide who is allowed to use the trademark. The Chengdu bid won the vote legitimately. They would have been massively overstepping their authority to try to prevent it. It's unlikely they could have even won a court case if they tried to prevent it.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
whatshisface 3y ago
>the amateur self-appointed censors couldn't actually be bothered to figure out what disqualification criteria would be ...as opposed to professional government-appointed censors?
- pototo666 3y ago
  Good point. Besides, there is no detailed guidebook on censorship in China. Every organization (media, social media) has to guess what the gov wants to censor. As a result, every organization tends to overdo it. Because 1). you never know if you miss one target that should be censored and 2). What is OK today might not be OK tomorrow. Censorship in China is an art (or joke).
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    That sounds like a very effective way to eliminate the oblique protests so common in Soviet fiction.
squarefoot 3y ago
> Because the site of Worldcon is selected by members (i.e, sci-fi fans) of which China has _many_. One could argue that when parties involved have so different population numbers, probably using the percentage of votes relative to a country population, instead of just number of votes would be a better solution.
baq 3y ago
China also has many CCP members, some of them are told to vote for China everywhere possible. It ends exactly like this every time. Remember the NBA scandal?

techsupporter 3y ago

At each WorldCon, host committees of science fiction groups from cities put up bids to host the WorldCon to be held two years hence. In 2021, Chengdu and Manitoba had committees on the roster. WorldCon voters chose Chengdu. The problem is one of effective power: do you tell people who live in these regimes, "sorry, you cannot participate in this culture because your government is bad." How much pull do they have to change things, especially this sort of thing? Or do you say "you can participate, but only at a lower tier." Either way is going to put some people into an out-group. Maybe that's the right thing to do--paradox of tolerance, for instance--for the rest of the people in the group or culture. Maybe it isn't. I know it would hurt pretty badly to be a science fiction enthusiast in China, perhaps even someone who really does not like what their government does, and not be able to participate. On the other hand, it hurts to be potentially on the list for your work's most prestigious honor, only to be "disqualified" because you "might" have written about something that isn't permitted in the host country you couldn't have predicted.

nkrisc 3y ago
“Sorry, your government won’t let you participate. Take it up with them.” Only the Chinese people can change China.
Wowfunhappy 3y ago
> Do you tell people who live in these regimes, "sorry, you cannot participate in this culture because your government is bad?" Yes. Sorry, that's how it goes. If I'm running a dance competition, I should not hold the award ceremony in a country which outlaws certain types of dance, lest they arrest some of my attendees. Similarly, if I'm running a literature competition, I shouldn't hold it in a country that outlaws certain types of literature. This isn't about trying to change anything per se, it's just practical.
- maxglute 3y ago
  You can buy the books in PRC. They're not outlawed. The issue is when authors politics are obvious source of controversy relative to local politics. Hugo is not stranger to such drama. Except fallout from ideological drama is extra bad for business in PRC. 8B RMB / 1B USD of deals was made at Chengdu convention, everyone tends to self censor / avoid blowback when that kind of money is involved.

bloqs 3y ago

This seems to be the only sensible response to this... what do people expect

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

roenxi 3y ago

[flagged]

gtirloni 3y ago
Tibet, Taiwan and the countries around the South China Sea would like to have word with you.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mulmen 3y ago
> Their foreign policy for example seems to be much gentler than the average. Is this one of those Excel bugs where you forgot to select the entire column?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
justinclift 3y ago
> But on the international stage China has been one of the best actors we have ... What are the examples of this you're thinking of?
- roenxi 3y ago
  If you go through the major wars at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict... and look at the wiki pages for each of them the name "China" is conspicuously absent from the little info boxes on the right. That is more than can be said for the US, NATO, African nations and Middle Easterners. It is nice having a region of the world where the major powers in the area believe in peace. Then even in the "Wars" section they have a limited showing give their relative economic power. I see them getting involved against Boko Haram and an the Ethiopia civil conflict as an arms supplier.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago