5 ms·

> Google is no more permissive about games and in app purchases - where most of the revenue comes from… Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing a

> Google is no more permissive about games and in app purchases - where most of the revenue comes from… Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading. They are also permissive on cloud gaming beyond Apple's minimal "reader app" exemption, which is why Microsoft has an xCloud app on Android and hasn't planned one for iOS. > And neither of those pay the “Apple tax” nor do most SaaS products. Not sure what "neither of those" refers to, if you're talking about Instagram and Threads avoiding the Apple tax, they do so via ads, but Apple is going after that as well. Most SaaS products that charge a fee to consumers do get hit by the Apple tax. Most services don't have the mainstream familiarity like Netflix and Amazon do to hide billing from the app. > Again 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchases, why wouldn’t they be motivated to avoid the “Google tax”? I feel like I'm repeating myself: because Android is the smaller platform in terms of revenue and therefore the ROI on moving to web just for Android is not great. > Cross platform games don’t depend on using native UI elements. Java swing and the other cross platform frameworks are not targeted toward games. But you knew this and are being pedantic. Cross platform apps don't need to depend on using native UI elements either. I'm not sure why you mention that Java swing doesn't target games, it's obviously not the only cross platform framework, the cross-platform frameworks that games use are obviously enough since so many games use it.

scarface_74 3y ago
> Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading And yet no major developer does it. Why not? You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough? > Not sure what "neither of those" refers to, if you're talking about Instagram and Threads avoiding the Apple tax, they do so via ads, but Apple is going after that as well. If you buy in the app yes they want their cut. Facebook gets to charge the difference. This does not preclude Facebook from selling the same thing outside of the App Store. > Most SaaS products that charge a fee to consumers do get hit by the Apple tax. Most services don't have the mainstream familiarity like Netflix and Amazon do to hide billing from the app SaaS apps are mostly B2B and involve contracts with the business where they just surface functionality through the App Store. I’ve worked for four SaaS providers that have Android and iPhone apps and none of them did there six figure contracts through the App Store. > I feel like I'm repeating myself: because Android is the smaller platform in terms of revenue and therefore the ROI on moving to web just for Android is not great. So it’s better to build an app for Android and pay the “Google tax”? > Cross platform apps don't need to depend on using native UI elements either. I'm not sure why you mention that Java swing doesn't target games, it's obviously not the only cross platform framework, the cross-platform frameworks that games use are obviously enough since so many games use it. People have different expectations for games. There aren’t any good cross platform frameworks that give you a completely native like experience on your platform / both Google and Facebook explicitly moved away from cross platform frameworks because they weren’t good enough. https://9to5google.com/2021/10/10/google-ios-apps-native/ https://9to5google.com/2021/10/10/google-ios-apps-native/ https://engineering.fb.com/2023/02/06/ios/facebook-ios-app-architecture/ https://engineering.fb.com/2023/02/06/ios/facebook-ios-app-a...
- themacguffinman 3y ago
  > And yet no major developer does it. Epic Games does it. Amazon does it. Here's some featured apps on the Fire tablet app store: Minecraft, Paramount+, Roblox, Netflix. > You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough? > So it’s better to build an app for Android and pay the “Google tax”? Yes, because you've already made the native app while a PWA is a very different platform. It's usually hard to justify a shift to such a different platform unless it saved you a lot of time by, for example, covering all major and popular platforms like iOS. > SaaS apps are mostly B2B B2B naturally having an out doesn't mean Apple's stranglehold over the B2C market through web platform limitations is okay. Apple never had a viable way to take a cut of B2B, no one is arguing that they are trying to protect B2B revenue, the point is that they are trying to protect B2C revenue and they shouldn't be able to > People have different expectations for games. There aren’t any good cross platform frameworks that give you a completely native like experience on your platform / both Google and Facebook explicitly moved away from cross platform frameworks because they weren’t good enough. Consumers don't strictly expect a completely native like experience on apps either. Both Google and Facebook are profitable enough (in fact some of the most profitable in the world) that they can afford to make the best experience on every platform, including desktop. The McDonald's app is obviously some web wrapper, it doesn't stop people from buying McDonald's. So is Amazon Shopping and Spotify and your local bank.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    > Epic Games does it. Amazon does it. Here's some featured apps on the Fire tablet app store: Minecraft, Paramount+, Roblox, Netflix And how is that relevant for phones? > Yes, because you've already made the native app while a PWA is a very different platform. It's usually hard to justify a shift to such a different platform unless it saved you a lot of time by, for example, covering all major and popular platforms like iOS. A 30% savings in the cost to go after 70% of the market is not enough of a motivation? New games/apps are coming out all of the time. Why not do web first if web technology is good enough and capture both the desktop and Android? In most of the rest of the world, iOS has much less market share than in the US. > Apple never had a viable way to take a cut of B2B, no one is arguing that they are trying to protect B2B revenue, the point is that they are trying to protect B2C revenue and they shouldn't be able to On my phone right now, I pay for Microsoft Office, Netflix, HBO Max, Kindle books, Amazon Prime (including Video) and Disney+ outside of the App Store. I don’t subscribe to Spotify. But you can’t buy a Spotify subscription on the App Store. All of Google’s apps that have a for pay component can be subscribed to outside of the App Store and you can’t subscribe to YouTube TV using in app purchases. > Both Google and Facebook are profitable enough (in fact some of the most profitable in the world) that they can afford to make the best experience on every platform, including desktop. The first B2B SaaS company I worked for after mobile became a thing had two developers writing the front end apps for both iOS and Android using native tools. It doesn’t take a trillion dollar market cap company to maintain native apps.

scarface_74 3y ago

> Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading And yet no major developer does it. Why not? You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough? > Not sure what "neither of those" refers to, if you're talking about Instagram and Threads avoiding the Apple tax, they do so via ads, but Apple is going after that as well. If you buy in the app yes they want their cut. Facebook gets to charge the difference. This does not preclude Facebook from selling the same thing outside of the App Store. > Most SaaS products that charge a fee to consumers do get hit by the Apple tax. Most services don't have the mainstream familiarity like Netflix and Amazon do to hide billing from the app SaaS apps are mostly B2B and involve contracts with the business where they just surface functionality through the App Store. I’ve worked for four SaaS providers that have Android and iPhone apps and none of them did there six figure contracts through the App Store. > I feel like I'm repeating myself: because Android is the smaller platform in terms of revenue and therefore the ROI on moving to web just for Android is not great. So it’s better to build an app for Android and pay the “Google tax”? > Cross platform apps don't need to depend on using native UI elements either. I'm not sure why you mention that Java swing doesn't target games, it's obviously not the only cross platform framework, the cross-platform frameworks that games use are obviously enough since so many games use it. People have different expectations for games. There aren’t any good cross platform frameworks that give you a completely native like experience on your platform / both Google and Facebook explicitly moved away from cross platform frameworks because they weren’t good enough. https://9to5google.com/2021/10/10/google-ios-apps-native/ https://9to5google.com/2021/10/10/google-ios-apps-native/ https://engineering.fb.com/2023/02/06/ios/facebook-ios-app-architecture/ https://engineering.fb.com/2023/02/06/ios/facebook-ios-app-a...

themacguffinman 3y ago
> And yet no major developer does it. Epic Games does it. Amazon does it. Here's some featured apps on the Fire tablet app store: Minecraft, Paramount+, Roblox, Netflix. > You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough? > So it’s better to build an app for Android and pay the “Google tax”? Yes, because you've already made the native app while a PWA is a very different platform. It's usually hard to justify a shift to such a different platform unless it saved you a lot of time by, for example, covering all major and popular platforms like iOS. > SaaS apps are mostly B2B B2B naturally having an out doesn't mean Apple's stranglehold over the B2C market through web platform limitations is okay. Apple never had a viable way to take a cut of B2B, no one is arguing that they are trying to protect B2B revenue, the point is that they are trying to protect B2C revenue and they shouldn't be able to > People have different expectations for games. There aren’t any good cross platform frameworks that give you a completely native like experience on your platform / both Google and Facebook explicitly moved away from cross platform frameworks because they weren’t good enough. Consumers don't strictly expect a completely native like experience on apps either. Both Google and Facebook are profitable enough (in fact some of the most profitable in the world) that they can afford to make the best experience on every platform, including desktop. The McDonald's app is obviously some web wrapper, it doesn't stop people from buying McDonald's. So is Amazon Shopping and Spotify and your local bank.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  > Epic Games does it. Amazon does it. Here's some featured apps on the Fire tablet app store: Minecraft, Paramount+, Roblox, Netflix And how is that relevant for phones? > Yes, because you've already made the native app while a PWA is a very different platform. It's usually hard to justify a shift to such a different platform unless it saved you a lot of time by, for example, covering all major and popular platforms like iOS. A 30% savings in the cost to go after 70% of the market is not enough of a motivation? New games/apps are coming out all of the time. Why not do web first if web technology is good enough and capture both the desktop and Android? In most of the rest of the world, iOS has much less market share than in the US. > Apple never had a viable way to take a cut of B2B, no one is arguing that they are trying to protect B2B revenue, the point is that they are trying to protect B2C revenue and they shouldn't be able to On my phone right now, I pay for Microsoft Office, Netflix, HBO Max, Kindle books, Amazon Prime (including Video) and Disney+ outside of the App Store. I don’t subscribe to Spotify. But you can’t buy a Spotify subscription on the App Store. All of Google’s apps that have a for pay component can be subscribed to outside of the App Store and you can’t subscribe to YouTube TV using in app purchases. > Both Google and Facebook are profitable enough (in fact some of the most profitable in the world) that they can afford to make the best experience on every platform, including desktop. The first B2B SaaS company I worked for after mobile became a thing had two developers writing the front end apps for both iOS and Android using native tools. It doesn’t take a trillion dollar market cap company to maintain native apps.