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Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startu

Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startup. Usually the very largest services will have a good desktop experience. Even then you have services like Instagram and Threads where the desktop web experience is clearly not a priority. Desktop is increasingly irrelevant to consumer markets. > Is it not worth the trouble of doing a PWA if it were good enough to avoid the “Google tax”? No it's often not, Android is typically the smaller platform in terms of revenue. There are also easier ways to avoid the Google tax because both Android and Google Play Store is more permissive. > BTW, Apple now allows cloud gaming in the App Store world wide. That's a good step forward, although Microsoft's head of gaming claims it's still not open enough to support xCloud, which is probably due to Apple imposing the classic revenue cut on all cloud gaming purchases. Edit: I forgot to address these two quotes, I'll just quickly note that the two statements literally contradict each other: > Games - which make up 90% of mobile revenue already use cross platform frameworks. > Cross platform frameworks have never been good enough and they’ve sucked since Java Swing all the way up to Electron apps.

scarface_74 3y ago
> Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startup. Usually the very largest services will have a good desktop experience. Even then you have services like Instagram and Threads where the desktop web experience is clearly not a priority. Desktop is increasingly irrelevant to consumer markets. And neither of those pay the “Apple tax” nor do most SaaS products. Again 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchases, why wouldn’t they be motivated to avoid the “Google tax”? > There are also easier ways to avoid the Google tax because both Android and Google Play Store is more permissive. Google is no more permissive about games and in app purchases - where most of the revenue comes from… As far as cloud gaming, Apple is including cloud gaming in the “reader app” clause of the rule where apps like Netflix don’t have to offer in app subscriptions https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/02/16/microsofts-ceo-doesnt-think-ios-is-open-enough-for-xbox-gaming/amp/ https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/02/16/microsofts-ceo-do... And my last two statements aren’t contradictory at all. Cross platform games don’t depend on using native UI elements. Java swing and the other cross platform frameworks are not targeted toward games. But you knew this and are being pedantic.
- themacguffinman 3y ago
  > Google is no more permissive about games and in app purchases - where most of the revenue comes from… Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading. They are also permissive on cloud gaming beyond Apple's minimal "reader app" exemption, which is why Microsoft has an xCloud app on Android and hasn't planned one for iOS. > And neither of those pay the “Apple tax” nor do most SaaS products. Not sure what "neither of those" refers to, if you're talking about Instagram and Threads avoiding the Apple tax, they do so via ads, but Apple is going after that as well. Most SaaS products that charge a fee to consumers do get hit by the Apple tax. Most services don't have the mainstream familiarity like Netflix and Amazon do to hide billing from the app. > Again 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchases, why wouldn’t they be motivated to avoid the “Google tax”? I feel like I'm repeating myself: because Android is the smaller platform in terms of revenue and therefore the ROI on moving to web just for Android is not great. > Cross platform games don’t depend on using native UI elements. Java swing and the other cross platform frameworks are not targeted toward games. But you knew this and are being pedantic. Cross platform apps don't need to depend on using native UI elements either. I'm not sure why you mention that Java swing doesn't target games, it's obviously not the only cross platform framework, the cross-platform frameworks that games use are obviously enough since so many games use it.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    > Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading And yet no major developer does it. Why not? You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough? > Not sure what "neither of those" refers to, if you're talking about Instagram and Threads avoiding the Apple tax, they do so via ads, but Apple is going after that as well. If you buy in the app yes they want their cut. Facebook gets to charge the difference. This does not preclude Facebook from selling the same thing outside of the App Store. > Most SaaS products that charge a fee to consumers do get hit by the Apple tax. Most services don't have the mainstream familiarity like Netflix and Amazon do to hide billing from the app SaaS apps are mostly B2B and involve contracts with the business where they just surface functionality through the App Store. I’ve worked for four SaaS providers that have Android and iPhone apps and none of them did there six figure contracts through the App Store. > I feel like I'm repeating myself: because Android is the smaller platform in terms of revenue and therefore the ROI on moving to web just for Android is not great. So it’s better to build an app for Android and pay the “Google tax”? > Cross platform apps don't need to depend on using native UI elements either. I'm not sure why you mention that Java swing doesn't target games, it's obviously not the only cross platform framework, the cross-platform frameworks that games use are obviously enough since so many games use it. People have different expectations for games. There aren’t any good cross platform frameworks that give you a completely native like experience on your platform / both Google and Facebook explicitly moved away from cross platform frameworks because they weren’t good enough. https://9to5google.com/2021/10/10/google-ios-apps-native/ https://9to5google.com/2021/10/10/google-ios-apps-native/ https://engineering.fb.com/2023/02/06/ios/facebook-ios-app-architecture/ https://engineering.fb.com/2023/02/06/ios/facebook-ios-app-a...

scarface_74 3y ago

> Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startup. Usually the very largest services will have a good desktop experience. Even then you have services like Instagram and Threads where the desktop web experience is clearly not a priority. Desktop is increasingly irrelevant to consumer markets. And neither of those pay the “Apple tax” nor do most SaaS products. Again 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchases, why wouldn’t they be motivated to avoid the “Google tax”? > There are also easier ways to avoid the Google tax because both Android and Google Play Store is more permissive. Google is no more permissive about games and in app purchases - where most of the revenue comes from… As far as cloud gaming, Apple is including cloud gaming in the “reader app” clause of the rule where apps like Netflix don’t have to offer in app subscriptions https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/02/16/microsofts-ceo-doesnt-think-ios-is-open-enough-for-xbox-gaming/amp/ https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/02/16/microsofts-ceo-do... And my last two statements aren’t contradictory at all. Cross platform games don’t depend on using native UI elements. Java swing and the other cross platform frameworks are not targeted toward games. But you knew this and are being pedantic.

themacguffinman 3y ago
> Google is no more permissive about games and in app purchases - where most of the revenue comes from… Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading. They are also permissive on cloud gaming beyond Apple's minimal "reader app" exemption, which is why Microsoft has an xCloud app on Android and hasn't planned one for iOS. > And neither of those pay the “Apple tax” nor do most SaaS products. Not sure what "neither of those" refers to, if you're talking about Instagram and Threads avoiding the Apple tax, they do so via ads, but Apple is going after that as well. Most SaaS products that charge a fee to consumers do get hit by the Apple tax. Most services don't have the mainstream familiarity like Netflix and Amazon do to hide billing from the app. > Again 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchases, why wouldn’t they be motivated to avoid the “Google tax”? I feel like I'm repeating myself: because Android is the smaller platform in terms of revenue and therefore the ROI on moving to web just for Android is not great. > Cross platform games don’t depend on using native UI elements. Java swing and the other cross platform frameworks are not targeted toward games. But you knew this and are being pedantic. Cross platform apps don't need to depend on using native UI elements either. I'm not sure why you mention that Java swing doesn't target games, it's obviously not the only cross platform framework, the cross-platform frameworks that games use are obviously enough since so many games use it.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  > Yeah they are. For one, you can bypass in-app billing altogether with third party app stores and side-loading And yet no major developer does it. Why not? You think getting users to use a third party App Store would be easier on conversions than a PWA if they were good enough? > Not sure what "neither of those" refers to, if you're talking about Instagram and Threads avoiding the Apple tax, they do so via ads, but Apple is going after that as well. If you buy in the app yes they want their cut. Facebook gets to charge the difference. This does not preclude Facebook from selling the same thing outside of the App Store. > Most SaaS products that charge a fee to consumers do get hit by the Apple tax. Most services don't have the mainstream familiarity like Netflix and Amazon do to hide billing from the app SaaS apps are mostly B2B and involve contracts with the business where they just surface functionality through the App Store. I’ve worked for four SaaS providers that have Android and iPhone apps and none of them did there six figure contracts through the App Store. > I feel like I'm repeating myself: because Android is the smaller platform in terms of revenue and therefore the ROI on moving to web just for Android is not great. So it’s better to build an app for Android and pay the “Google tax”? > Cross platform apps don't need to depend on using native UI elements either. I'm not sure why you mention that Java swing doesn't target games, it's obviously not the only cross platform framework, the cross-platform frameworks that games use are obviously enough since so many games use it. People have different expectations for games. There aren’t any good cross platform frameworks that give you a completely native like experience on your platform / both Google and Facebook explicitly moved away from cross platform frameworks because they weren’t good enough. https://9to5google.com/2021/10/10/google-ios-apps-native/ https://9to5google.com/2021/10/10/google-ios-apps-native/ https://engineering.fb.com/2023/02/06/ios/facebook-ios-app-architecture/ https://engineering.fb.com/2023/02/06/ios/facebook-ios-app-a...